Public Frustrations
Bad Advice at Best
Let me start off by saying that it has been a real challenge for me to view this situation objectively. David’s staunchest defenders are always counseling to “take David at his word.” Except, of course, when his word so plainly and unequivocally implies prejudice. Then, we are supposed to somehow accept the dubious interpretation that, “oh, he only meant the eroticized nature of the event, not the fact that it was a gay event.” This might be a reasonable spin, except for one critical fact: None of the fuss and drama on the twitters and blog boards — the self-stated reason why David decided to break his Sunday communication rule and address the ruckus in the first place — was about the fact that David was at a club where the performances included scantily-clad dancers.
It was all about the gay.
I find this turn of events troubling on a number of fronts. As evidenced by an accidental public tweet that was later removed, David was obviously in consultation with someone regarding how to respond to the hullabaloo. As RonaldSF reported in the previous thread:
…at 10:09PM Eastern (20 minutes before his “clarifying” tweets) he sent out a public tweet that said: “Should I tweet that or put it in a blog? Twitter is honestly more public. Only fans really read the blogs.”
If the words he tweeted were supplied to him, or of they were vetted by someone advising him on his public relations, it was extremely shoddy work indeed, and only served to make the situation worse with more polarization.
Somehow or other, David is going to have to contend with the fact that, perhaps more than any other artist, he is straddling two very different worlds. On the one hand, he hails from, represents, and appeals to a highly conservative, deeply religious community with canonical discrimination against homosexuals (and please spare me, beloved commentators, your hair-splitting equivocations about “the person” versus “the behavior,” it doesn’t wash). On the other hand, he is championed and loved by an inclusive collection of people who embrace diversity as a virtue.
Any suggestion that David is choosing sides in this culture war has dire consequences. I feel for him, I really do. As someone stated in the previous thread, it is a no-win situation. Perhaps he simply got some very bad advice. But what seems awfully clear to me is that he was leaning far more heavily on justifications demanded by his conservative constituents than on an inclination to defend inclusiveness and diversity.
The forces of darkness are not in that club, David, they are in people’s hearts.
Update 11:30 a.m. EDT
David has evidently responded to the firestorm of reaction to his thinly-veiled anti-gay sentiments with a couple of tweets including comments like, “I have friends who are gay, and they’re great people,” and “I have nothing against anyone, I’m sorry if that’s how it came across. I’m just not into the partying scene lol.”
Don’t even tell me he just said, “some of my best friends are gay.” Oh, David. And what about, “I’m just not into the partying scene”…? That’s what you’re hanging this on? Really? Exactly what did you expect from a 1:30 a.m performance? Carnagie freaking Hall?
A word of advice, David: When you’re in a hole, stop digging.
ABOUT THIS AUTHOR
After I read this, I realized I was one of the people that gave David this escape hatch, “oh, he only meant the eroticized nature of the event, not the fact that it was a gay event.”
Rascal, you are right. It was about the gayness of the venue, because no one even mentioned it’s erotic nature until after David’s tweets. It was us spinning it for him.
My heartfelt apologies, my friend.
Rascal You made some very good points. Appreciate how you think as you are a very smart man.
Humbly present my thoughts.
FIRST THOUGHT: David has a way to go on becoming more able to handle these situations on his own without looking to others. I don’t know yet where he actually stands on this but he may have come out in a better light had he handled it David’s Way rather than from someone else’s advice.
SECOND THOUGHT: Actually, really thinking this through more: don’t know if David even took someone’s else’s advice as he has been known to do just what he pleases. We really don’t know whether he did take advice or not. Just sayin’.
NOT SO SELFISH ME: I feel that David would be better off dealing with things David’s Way and letting the chips fall where they may. At least the future he builds will be HIS to succeed or not.
VERY SELFISH ME: BUT the thought of never hearing that voice sing again because he didn’t get to make a successful career makes me feel ill. That is what scares me for my own selfish reasons.
Thanks for this, Rascal. For on my own views people can refer to my rants in the previous thread lol.
Rereading one of David’s tweets, and I noticed the phrase “NO worries all…” This just tells me that he was worried about what others think of him, at least in this case. Pretty sad.
Still, I believe he is of two sides, and he was independent enough to have gone there in the first place and not run away in terror. For my two cents I think he was relatively comfortable in the new environs Saturday night before people told him later it was a “problem.” Homophobia, concern for career, or both -- either way, I do agree that external pressure was a driving force here. I sincerely believe that David is better than this.
I say, let him fail. He’s a man, right? His reaction to the goss was to fall back on the kneejerk, disgusting, and bigoted Gay Panic. “Don’t worry,” he chirps reassuringly to his bigoted fans. NOT saying anyone here is bigoted or that all or most of his fans are… but if he felt like he had to explain himself in terms that speak to fear and panic, apparently Archie believes many of his fans are anti-LGBT freaks.
His voice is beautiful, yes. But the boy has issues. I don’t wish to hear the voice of a bigot, however angelic the sounds. The message is still HATE. I am NOT supporting that.
His words, his tweets, his bigotry. Let David Archuleta be a man and rise of fall based on his own words. If he’s not a bigot, it’s on him to prove that, because right now, the justice jury is against him and disgusted by him.
That was harsh, wasn’t it? Well, it’s all genuine and honest. I have to note (as the mom of a teen) that perhaps when Archie grows up, he will become a decent man who can accept everyone without trepidation and without excuse (and without insulting insinuations). I sincerely hope that day comes, but until then, his music is not allowed in my home.
wow windyg strong words. I understand where that comes from, but I tend to give him the benefit of the doubt. He babbled on too long and it was awkward. He’ll pay for this, yes, and he’ll learn and grow, I hope.
windyg- I don’t know exactly what issues you are referring to as I know that as a 19 year old I had plenty of issues.
I feel badly about this but also feel that this is a part of growing up. Not just how you feel about the gay issue.
Hi Windyg, my own imperfect sense of David tells me he is not a hardened bigot, but that he is (for whatever reason) defensive about this issue. He sincerely loves Ellen, yes, but society’s homophobia is something powerful indeed and can dominate his own actual inclinations and beliefs. I don’t seek to give him excuses -- but I do hope you don’t give up on him so much that you turn off the Archumusic.
Ram, I agree with a whole lot of what you say. David has his own David Way which would have been a better to deal with this, than how this turned out.
#7 “Not just how you feel about the gay issue.” And by “you” I mean how anyone might feel about the gay issue. At 19 I think a young person is going to not always be clear about where they stand and I have no way of knowing where David might stand on that.
If David feels the need to explain why he, at age 19 was at a gay nightclub, then so be it. If those who want to spin his explanation as some sort of hate mongering then you need to look inward. windyg, your condemnation of David is merely a projection of your own bigotry and hatred.
Well, there’s the saying that “no news is good news” and then there’s the idea in Hollywood that “it’s better that they’re talking badly about you, than that they’re not talking about you at all”…
I agree that the tweets from David were not the best. In fact, as I read them roll out my heart sank, and I kept thinking, “oh no, fail”. But, I remember when I was 19. If I have nothing else, I do have empathy!
It will be interesting to see the direction this all takes.
Interestingly, my children, one 21, the other 13, never had this issue. My husband and I have taught them from the womb that bigotry is unacceptable. Hopefully he will grow out of it. I blame him less than I blame his family, but he’s a man or darn close to it — it is completely appropriate for him to be held accountable for his words. His error was grave — the response should be every bit as serious. I have no time for homophobes. This world is too evil, and I just learned about an elderly California couple — one man aged 88, his partner aged 77. When the older partner, Harold became ill, the state barged in, put Harold in one nursing home, put Clay — who was not ill and against his will — into a SEPARATE place. The state then terminated the couple’s lease — they’d lived there together in bliss for more than 20 years — and sold all their belongings, mementos, etc. Got rid of it all! Harold, alone and miserable, died without his family, Clay. And Clay was devastated. He got a lawyer, and now, they’re suing everyone involved.
Now, some may feel that we should tolerate or endure the bigotry of the young. I disagree vehemently. Allowing this perhaps benign hate to go unchallenged — and given the seriousness of the sin, the challenge needs to be severe for the bigot’s own soul’s sake — is partially responsible for the horrifying condition of this nation, which is a land divided by HATE.
You want to give Archie a pass ‘cos he’s a kid? That’s your choice. Mileage varies on this end. I say he’ll be a better man if he is made aware of how evil his sentiments are and the hurt his words caused.
May not be a big deal to you, but the soul of America is twisted and charred because it refuses to stop the hate. Makes me sick.
ronald- I actually have to say that I don’t know if he (1)actually took someone’s advice and agreed on addressing it this way or if (2) took the advice against his own thoughts on how it should be handled.
I believe David is 19 years old and I believe he is tolerant not that he believes one way or the other on the gay issue. He is 19 years old and has thought about a lot of things which we, his fans marvel at (being so young and seeming very wise in many ways, but he is still forming his character and who is to know what he may choose to do or not do in the future.
I too am sorry Windyg if you no longer wish to support David and his music. If I was his age, I would hope people would cut me some slack while I get my footing on where I am and what I believe or don’t believe. As an adult, I make so many mistakes all the time. Hope you will reconsider.
Windyg, you are he one who is twisted and sick. Nothing in David’s responses are bigoted or hateful, that is your interpretation. If you want to spin David’s words as “evil” and words that “hurt”, that’s your problem, and I am sure there are more people just like you.
Wow, this thing just gets crazier by the minute. He perhaps should have said nothing. He only dug himself deeper.
On a different slant, I am wondering if it was bad judgment to book Charice in a bar venue at 1 a.m. to begin with? Isn’t she about 15? I know David has played places with a bar, and I am not cutting David any slack on what he said, but I am wondering if either of them had any idea about the venue. Sounds like a mess all-around.
Bj, Windyg just shared a personal experience with you that would explain why she is hurt. And to call a person “twisted and sick” in a debate about homophobia? Ouch!
New developments -- David’s responded to a tweet about an hour ago:
A hamghost on twitter posted:
What a shame to hear about @DavidArchie having a problem with the gays -- in his position he needs all the fans he can get, surely?
DavidArchie:
@hamghost I have nothing against anyone, I’m sorry if that’s how it came across. I’m just not into the partying scene lol.
@hamghost I have friends who are gay, and they’re great people. Whether they’re gay or not doesn’t change how I think of them.
On the hand, I don’t quite accept that David was trying to dissociate from being in the “party scene” (he uses the escape hatch), and the “I have friends who are ___” is a classic way to avoid the real issue (one can have gay friends and love Ellen, but still feel discomfort and fear at the overt expression of gay sexuality).
On the other hand, he is responding to the concerns of gay fans and offers an apology – on balance, it is at least better than where David was last night. This is what I expected from him, actually.
I never thought that David had hardened bigoted anti-gay feelings. I’m with Rascal that this was likely partly due to “bad advice.” At the same time, I think the main problem that Rascal pointed out remains—David felt (and continues to feel) pressure not to freak out those who would insist he remain some sheltered boy closed off from the world. Hopefully, David will sort out his actual thoughts and stand by “David’s Way.”
The forces of darkness are not in that club, David, they are in people’s hearts.
Beautifully put, Rascal!
Seems like the server issues that have been plaguing us for about 24 hours are now resolved. The site should be speedier, now.
Freofan, I think that booking a venue like Club 57 is pretty good marketing thinking -- if Charice is putting out a dance song (it’s currently #7 on the BillBoard dance charts), it makes total sense to have Charice perform a top nightclub in New York City. And gay people are a key dance demographic and like to shake their booties
Somehow I feel the need to open some eyes about the wonderful fabulosity that is gay people and gay life. Check out this clip from a very gay show I recently discovered on the BBC, in which 2 gay teens head out to school to audition for a musical
Dear WendyG,
The word hateful and David just don’t go together, to put all your frustrations on a tweet or tweets done by a 19 year old a totally different lifestyle is a bit overboard. He is not the one to atone for all the world’s unfairness.
I am a Mormon and we are not new to being disparaged and misrespresented. In American history we are on of the few groups that were target for an extermination or in Missouri.
We have had rude things said about things that we hold sacred.
You do not have a lock on being on the receiving end of bigotry.
I saw what the inside of that club looks like, it is not a place for 15 year old or a 19 year old even it is a gay or straight club. Most Mormons do not go to bars period, but some do and that is their choice. Our faith somewhat discourages not to go into bars period.
Do you know any Mormons personally? What do you know about the culture and the lifestyle. I would say maybe you are being intolerent of them.
People in our church still have their own mind and we do have hearts and compassion and love our fellow man.
All David wants to do is sing and share his great talent.
Sorry, David does have hetrosexual fans and just like any artist has and they will have to learn to coexist.
windyg … everyone has faults, you and your family and me and my family as well … although we try our best to teach them right, none of us are perfect … to give up on anyone like that and hang them out to dry like that leaves no hope for humanity. I wouldn’t be so quick to judge someone like you did. You yourself are quick to jump to your own conclusions. Who are you to judge David that way … that is not a good quality at all either.
It’s funny, your intolerance of David’s views is the same intolerance that produces the hate and bigotry.
Internet is NOT a good tool for communicating emotions and feelings. And I’m sorry for David that he unwisely went that route. Who of us have not done or said stupid things when we were that young … God, I’m surprised I am not out on the streets, or worse yet dead because of some of the dumb things I did. People still make mistakes too when their older and should know better.
I’m trying hard not to be cruel back to you, but that’s what you do seem to me … is cruel. If I’m bad because I’m judging you wrong, then you’re bad too cause you’re judging David wrong too.
That being said, I hope you will reconsider and instead of condemning David, encourage and support him. He definitely needs our support, love and understanding … the same that he has given us for the last 2+ years. I will never turn my back on David, ever.
Ok, this whole mess IS about prejudice $ bigotry, but I feel everybody has got it wrong. The one I have been seeing judged is not the homosexual community, but David. I have read how he is a small town, conservative, Mormon young man and now people are interpreting his words by their own prejudice. Sorry, windyg -- but that is how I am interpreting your words. You claim homophobia is a serious offense,but are so quick to label someone without seeing the ramifications of your words & actions.
And, Rascal, I do believe that it was “the eroticized nature of the event, not the fact that it was a gay event.”
So, before all of you look at David’s percieved bigotry, I suggest you look to your own.
oh … and not to say David has only given 2+ years of himself, lol … as I understand it he’s been giving back to his community even as a child … I’m sure you all realize I meant the 2+ years that we’ve know him from AI, lol!
cutter … I’m glad you can help balance things out … that’s what people are doing … judging David alright. UGH!
The sad thing to me is that David felt that he had to explain himself or justify anything. He’s over 18 and it’s his right to go where he wants. I wish he would have just kept quiet.
Sometimes unfortunately, he is a people pleaser and does not want to offend anyone, and he has a large contingent of fans who are very conservative.
Yes, I know Mormons. I have a great friend who is gay and used to be Mormon. They kicked him out.
I know there are good Mormons and bad Mormons,just as there are good and bad people who happen to be gay. I love Marie, for example, who supports her gay daughter. I can’t abide Donny, who stands for the legal diminishment of LGBT Americans. Truth be told, many religious folk get it: Gays can be equal under civil law while still permitting those inclined to discriminate to do so within their own faith community, safe from the reach of good people. Deny them God if you must, but to deny them equality under civil law? That is evil.
I am happy to encourage David to embrace equality and sincerely do wish him well. I want his soul to be healthy and clean. If he answers my question to my satisfaction, I’m happy to give him my money. But taking a risk to give money to someone whose views are potentially dangerous to me and mine… can’t do it. I’ve seen to much pain, experienced too much death and suicide because of
And the difference between the bigoted right wing and me is MASSIVE. They hate gays for being gay and support them being classed legally as inferior to you. Those of who do not tolerate inequality are intolerant of bigotry, you’re right. However, we want EVERYONE equal under law. Only one side wishes to diminish and demean others using the law as the whip…. and it isn’t the pro-LGBT crowd. We don’t want to discriminate under law at all. We want gays to live fulfilled, happy lives. We want non-gays to live fulfilled, happy lives. One caveat: We do not with fulfillment for anyone whose fulfillment depends on punishing anyone under law for being who they are. That means a gay guy who tells me hets or Christians or Mormons, etc. are categorically evil won’t get my support either. I have associates on the right and the left. I have bigots with whom I try to be friends, but you can’t be friends with someone who views people as inferior. Or rather, I can’t. I’ll do all I can to lead them to the path of truth, light, hope, peace, and justice… but money? No.
I don’t know if it’s the fact that I’m young or an open “child of nature”, if you will, but I saw NOTHING that implied prejudice or bigotry in David’s tweets. It seems really odd to me that you, Rascal, who I see as a wise, very intelligent man, can juggle ten-syllable-words like no other, could read a simple tweet in such a complicated way. Your view that David’s tweet “so plainly and unequivocally implies prejudice” is really far-fetched to me.
As for all the gay-fans getting angry at David… There are some people who represent minorities, that are always on guard. They are very touchy and they look for insinuations of prejudice everywhere. It’s like saying “You have beautiful eyes” to a feminist and them replying with “Are you trying to objectify me?!?”. Or an African-American asking if you have a problem with black people because you said your favorite colour is white. Gay people along with all other minorities (black people, women, Mexican people etc.) have gone through tough times to get accepted, and they have every right to defend themselves. Still, some take it too far by interpreting everything as an insult. NOTICE: I don’t mean anyone on TDC or all the gay people that have taken offence regarding this issue. Just SOME.
I haven’t been around long enough to have knowledge about your sexual orientation, Rascal, nor is it any of my business. If you are gay, however, I understand why you think the way you do about this hugely exaggerated matter. But I must disagree with you on this one.
Windyg: I get your anger and frustration. But do you really think David Archuleta represents all the cruel authorities that decided to treat the old couple badly?
If you ever really were a fan, I doubt you even cared about anything but David’s voice, since you seem to talk about some person I don’t recognize. Do some research on David before you write posts like that. If you’re seriously going to stop being David’s fan, well, judging (no pun intended) by your comments, it’s your loss -- not his. Peace.
I have heard many times the rhetoric that expressing anger toward homophobia makes one “just as bad, if not worse.” I usually refrain from such debates when it gets to that level, because that’s not really the issue.
MomWithODD, I support a number of your statements on this issue so far, however I do object to a statement “Your intolerance of David’s views is the same intolerance that produces the hate and bigotry.”
(First of all, I do not think that David has expressed any opinion on gay marriage, and I know that not all LDS members subscribe to the views of their church, just as not all Christians share the religious view on divorce (pa-rum-pum).)
But please be aware of the logical extension of what you said: that the hate and bigotry are “produced” by gay people’s “intolerance” toward it. This is a circular statement, and even worse can be construed to place the blame on gay people who are discouraged in a thousand ways from speaking out to begin with.
Wendyg never said that David should be split apart from his spouse and made to die alone.
It’s all too tempting to put things on an abstract moral plane, because it avoids the inequality that exists in the real world.
Thank you ronaldsf. Inequality is real. It kills. And inequality’s continuance is attributable to the attitudes some believe Archie expressed.
embe: No, I do not think one person is representative of all of it. The hate existed long before he got here. And as I do not know his position on equality — he has not answered me yet — I cannot speculate fairly. However, I am sick of people telling me that I am too touchy. Those people tend to be those in the majority group, so while doubtless well-meaning, it sounds like yet another majority-group person telling a minority-group person to shut up about their pain. With all respect, I cannot until we all are equal. Every day without equality diminishes this nation and everyone in it. And I refuse to call myself a US citizen until all are equal under law.
I certainly hope that the really hurtful and nasty comments (directed at David) which I have read over the last 24 hours, do not represent the feelings of a very large portion of the gay community.
There are some pretty judgemental judgemental people, both straight and gay, out there.
Rascal, David says whether someone is straight or gay doesn’t change how he thinks of them and you ridicule him for saying that? I thought that was pretty mature and great of him to once again try to explain his feelings and that he is sorry if what he said came across wrong. He may have unwittingly and naively dug a hole but I would think you of all people would extend a hand to him instead of shoveling dirt down on top of him. You are not a young nineteen year old kid and come on, is this really how you want to treat him for this? What does he learn from that? Do we really want him to be so paranoid that he can’t feel he can go anywhere or trust anyone? Is there room for kindness in this world? I don’t know about David, but I am feeling pretty sad.
Wendyg,
You really do not know David’s heart, nobody knows what really in another person’s heart. I just know all the good things he does and the way he treats all his fans, his sweet nature, his caring and actions he is done for others is proof to me what is in his heart. His previous actions speak louder than a few tweets.
You read way too much into his tweets, you should be more upset with his fans than with David.
When I found out Elton John was gay that did not stop me from listening to him, because he has such great music and did not want to miss that. It is a shame that you are going to miss any of David’s upcoming music, because I think it is your loss.
Windyg: I agree with you on this part:
“I cannot until we all are equal. Every day without equality diminishes this nation and everyone in it.”
I am heterosexual, but that doesn’t overrule my concern for minorities, including homosexual people. I said I understand your anger and pain when it comes to inequality. I never said YOU were one of the touchy people. I even stated separately, that I wasn’t talking about anyone on this site.
However, I still find your earlier posts quite cold, since you have repeatedly said you don’t know David or his views. He has now said that he has nothing against anyone. If that isn’t enough for you and you expect him to write a twelve-page essay on the matter, you’re in for a long wait. If you know anything about David, you should know he has never said a bad word about ANYONE.
And as for David’s “position on equality”; he has expressed his concern about the homeless, the poor, the starving, children, women’s position, peer pressure amongst youngsters etc. and I think that speaks for itself.
I’m with Freofan (#26): It’s really a shame he felt the need to explain himself at all. I believe his intentions are good and I feel bad for him, but he’ll learn.
Great tongue in cheek advice for David:
http://www.queersighted.com/2010/04/19/monday-morning-quarterbacking-david-archuletas-weekend/
I know one thing. David should continue to feel free to say whatever he wants. If he gets screamed at on twitter and feels he needs to say something in his own David-speak, he should do that. If people want to make his words mean negative things toward themselves or others after 2 years of watching him lovingly and respectfully interact with every single person who has approached him and never speak ill of anyone and even when dj’s would say rude things to and about him to his face he would still answer them honestly (even though they would all then laugh at him to his face because they had no idea what to say to an honest answer and yet he was still respectful and truthful in his responses to them). I believe he accepts and respects all of us with all our personalities, beliefs, life-styles, sexuality (or even lack there-of) even though many people are not able to accept him as he is because he is probably one of the most unusual and charismatic people we will ever encounter. I believe he has the right to feel out of place somewhere and actually say that. The fast, sexualized nature of many clubs at 1am (gay or straight) is too over-the-top for many of us and we all have the right to say -- “yikes -- that is so not me!” That is not a value judgment about every single person at that club -- gay or straight -- but a statement about our own ability to handle/process certain very personal situations. I don’t think this is a reflection on his opinion of the sexual preference of anyone in a club -- gay/straight/whatever. I do not believe in control-speak or control-think and to think that David is homophobic because he is not comfortable in a certain atmosphere or situation and actually says it right out is not a statement of his opinion on anyone’s sexual preference. David does not pretend to be this cool guy who fits in everywhere He is a self-proclaimed “dork”. He is a very spiritual person -- a person who actually radiates goodwill, love, and in fact seems to have a real need to meet and learn from every single person he meets.
Ronald -- I hope the first part of your post wasn’t directed towards my post, if it was, please let me clarify. I wasn’t saying a person shouldn’t show anger over injustice, in fact, I feel everyone should shout out to the highest heavens anytime a person or group is demeaned or treated as inferior. What I am having issues with is how quickly people are labeling others without truly trying to understand. In fact, I see it as they are doing exactly what they are accusing the person of doing. And, windyg, I am sorry about your pain, but to group David into the same category as the people who have caused your pain; I cannot agree with.
cb -- I love your post.
Cb, I have not read the whole set the comments you speak of, but if Windyg’s comments are any indication I believe that the most vigorous reaction is coming from people who associate him with LDS. This might be unfair to David personally, but I can understand where they’re coming from: the Mormon church did do something quite extraordinary for a religious organization, by funneling the vast majority of the money provided to the Proposition 8 campaign in California.
But if I were to guess, David approaches religion more as a personal choice than adherence to an institution. His love for Ellen, who starred in a prominent TV ad against Prop 8, tells me that he might personally disagree with his church’s views on the subject. Hopefully David has already learned not to concern himself too much with such reactions.
LilMe: Thanks for the link. I think they said it quite well, tongue-in-cheek.
Cutter12, thank you for clarifying your views.
embe,
I appreciate the way you interpret David’s statements, but I don’t think the fact that I interpret them differently, or more seriously, is reason enough to question my validity as a fan. I am not even certain what that label, or the absence of it, actually accomplishes.
Further, your comment that “you seem to talk about some person I don’t recognize” implies some familiarity with David that neither you, nor the vast majority of the fan community, actually have. People often seem to think they “know” David. None of us really do. And despite the fact that people often accuse me of having some kind of “agenda” for David, I actually think that I am far more inclined than most to evaluate his public actions and communications objectively. I call it as I see it, with little or nothing in the way of preconceived notions about who I think he is or should be. If I find his comments seriously lacking, as I have in these past twenty-four hours, it is precisely because I am not laboring under any illusions of “who I think he is,” or any delusions about my personal “knowledge” of him.
I accord David the same respect and consideration I would any adult public figure whose work holds interest for me. If my failure to accord him some fan-fueled benefit-of-the-doubt and not give him a “pass” for making idiotic statements makes me “not a fan,” in anyone’s book, well, then, I guess I will just have to live with that.
So far, I believe I am still alive and kicking.
Rascal, though I would share your view that you’re seeing things quite “objectively,” many people who disagree with you and/or me probably think they’re looking at this quite “objectively,” too.
‘Tis in the nature of this argument… In the meantime, it’s time for me to get to the case I was supposed to be working on today lol. Much love to all, -R
I am sad too, but then, I am thinking of Harold and Clay; the many kids (possibly David; we’ll see his stand on equality and work from there) who are taught to hate by supposedly well-meaning parents (“You’ve got to be taught to hate and fear You’ve got to be taught from year to year It’s got to be drummed in your dear little ear You’ve got to be carefully taught” — from rodgers and hammerstein’s “south pacific”). I am also sad thinking of the parents who lose their kids to antigay families or through antigay courts, of the gay kids disowned and abused by their parents, classmates, town thugs, and the larger society; of misguided, badly taught evangelical Christians protesting antibullying policies or insisting that kids of gay parents become invisible in schools; of the many kids who die or learn to hate themselves so much that their souls die and self-esteem falls; of the people fired for being gay or acting gay or being perceived as gay (perfectly legal in most states, incl. Utah); of Del Martin, who waited 50 years to marry her love legally and died shortly thereafter, and her widow Phyllis Lyons; of my friends long dead and newly dead; for Matthew Shepard; of the insults I have endured from the likes of bigots; of the tears my daughter shed when she encountered Fred Phelps (the God Hates —s guy); of the people who love each other and cannot wed who have to watch silly hets get married on reality shows and then split after the finale; and on and on…
Sorry, a teenager selling records doesn’t qualify as something a serious person worries about when life and death matters are at play.
Now, someone attacked me for (how high school) not being a real fan. Ooooh… As a matter of fact, though I did support Cook that year, I liked Archie’s voice too, and published a statement earlier this morning in which I likened his voice to that of an angel. There is no arguing his talent — he’s aces in that regard. But bigotry turns beauty into ugliness. I don’t support John Mayer anymore and burned all of his music after he revealed himself as the David Duke of the New Millennium, but that doesn’t diminish his talent. But I have principles and won’t cross them to listen to a possible bigot’s music until I am reassured of his personal decency. Sorry. One exception: Wagner. Love his operas. He’s long dead, though, so listening to the Ring Cycle is about history and thus OK.
There — pop, classical, and show tune references in one rant. She may be angry and committed to principle uber alles, but she’s educational too.
Oh, one note that must be added. I hate no one. Not even George Bush, who’s a war criminal and should be in jail. Just not built to hate.
Also, cb, do you realize that minority-group Americans have no choice but feel paranoid because we are judged at every turn? Gays can be fired for being gay or for even the suspicion. Look at the military, where they have a hard time just repealing the damned law yet play games with don’t pursue… It’s criminal, or should be. And it goes on and on every day. Unless you are unequal, you have no clue how horrible a life it is. So yeah, when I see a slur, I will challenge it. Every time. It’s my duty as a human committed to fixing a likely irrevocably broken, rotten, hateful country and world.
Someone else noted that I am not being nice. I am 48 years old, queer (bisexual; married to a pro-LGBT man — unhappily, but I made a promise), a monogamous progressive Christian, and a multicultural human who does not believe in the concept of race and is cursed with too much melanin for public comfort in the US (or so I gather from a half-century of experiences). I don’t feel comfortable in the country in which my parents (damn them) spawned me and never have. My country has lied to me my entire life. People are cruel, casually and purposefully, every single day. I have lost untold loved ones to hate and have experienced psychic and physical pain at the hands of antigay people. I am unequal under law. Why in the heck do I have to be nice to my legal superiors, to people the law declare are better than me by virtue of who they are compared to the frightening, dangerous creature I am alleged by the culture and the law to be? I try to be civil and polite and usually succeed, but if equality is the issue, all bets are off. And I won’t apologize for it. I am doing what’s right. I am standing for justice for gays AND for those who hate gays. But justice means, the antigay sort have to stop discriminating against gays under law. There is no compromising equality.
As for judgmental… please. I was judged at birth as being less than you. I am judged every second my people who make judgments the minute they see my face. Give me a break — I am judging his own words. And I have given him an opportunity to come clean on the issue one way or the other. Whatever his answer, I’ll respect him for giving it. If his answer is an evil one, well, that’s his right and it’s mine to avoid him. If it’s the decent, humane answer, I’ll be first in line to get his next disc and I’ll even feature it on my radio station as Music by One Good Kid. But I need to hear his answer from him. Would a ‘phobe give *me* a chance like that? No way. I am no danger to them. They are a danger to me. Pure and simple.
collegemom #35: Very well said. Personally, I suspect -- and hope -- that you are spot-on in your interpretation of David’s “yikes!” dorkiness as the root cause of his less-than adroit communications. Unfortunately for me, however, it still does not supply him with a get-out-of-hot-water free card on the public relations game board.
One last comment
For people who think some of the comments are unfair toward David, I would just point to my initial reaction in the previous thread: “In an effort to please everybody…”
My point is that one can have that subjective intention, but in the real world, in some situations, there are still casualties, particularly when one overcompensates as David did in this case. This was an extraordinary situation in which the balancing act David often plays just wouldn’t cut it.
Rascal: The part of my post you quoted was meant for windyg. Not you. You didn’t express your view in such harsh and cruel manner. Windyg made David sound like someone else, as I said. I find it funny how you interpreted my comment “you seem to be talking about a person I don’t recognize”. I worded it like that, because I thought it was OBVIOUS I don’t know David on a personal level.
I do, however, know what I have witnessed and heard, and I believe you have too. So if you think back to these past two years, if you think about how David has portrayed himself and what first turned you into his fan, do you actually see the same person as the one windyg was describing?
Windyg: I don’t think I “attacked” you. I just don’t consider one to be a true fan of David, if they can jump to conclusions and talk so harshly about him after A DAMN TWEET. You may be a fan of his voice, I’m not denying that, but to be a fan of David the person is another thing alltogether.
But like you said, when it comes to the subject at hand, all bets are off for you, and you seem to get riled up about this so I don’t see how it’s productive to continue this argument.
ronaldsf, Thank you for the reply. I believe you are a kind person with a kind heart. I know that you deal with hard things and I want to understand. Truly, I do. I am LDS like David. I grew up in Utah so I know that he was definitely out of his element the other night. He would have been out of his element if it was a straight bar with some pretty adult stuff going on. I would have been. I wouldn’t have wanted my parents to know (let alone the whole world) because that is the culture I grew up in. Maybe I would have made the mistake of trying to explain too. I wish he had just said “I went to support a friend” End of story. I guess he still would have gotten flack from VFTW and others but he didn’t owe anyone an explanation. What I wish he had done is irrelevant. He explained because he cares, and feels a responsibility to people, and doesn’t want anyone to be disappointed in him. That is a pretty hard road to walk. He is not so hardened and tough yet that he doesn’t care. I hate the fact that he will have to become harder because there aren’t many people out there that still believe in the goodness of the world and have the hope that he does. I love that he cares so much about people and charities and giving. David inspires me to give more and be more positive. It breaks my heart that that someone like David has a hard time existing in this world. He is naive perhaps but there is something so touching about his optimism and his heart. I understand how his comments were perceived by some but I don’t understand the hate. I still think if we try to understand and learn from each other the world can be a better place. I want to believe that. I want David to continue to believe that.
I just want to say that I read here often and have enjoyed visiting but rarely post… not just here, but on any D sites. Mostly just a reader, but love David as much as I know you all do.
I remember the interview that Showbiz Shelly did just after AI7 where she asked David what he did in his spare time and he replied that he just listened to music. On second thought he said that he hung out with his friends and they listened to music. Then he said that sometimes they drove around looking for a place to hang out… but not bars. He very specifically said that he did not go into bars. He didn’t single out gay or straight, he just said he didn’t do the bar scene…. which when he tweeted Saturday that was the context that I took it. Two years have passed since he made that comment. He has sung in venues that are bars, but they were booked for his concerts. It seems a little bit differrent when a bar is booked as a venue and filled with your adoring fans than going to a night club. Considering that probably his concerts were his only experience in a bar or club, I doubt that he would have thought much about going to see Charice perform. I believe him when he said he didn’t know what to expect. I also believe him when he says that he doesn’t have anything against anyone. I have followed him for 2 years and I have never seen anything to contradict that. I don’t believe that we, the fans, fabricated an out for David. He just confirmed what I thought when this whole mess started unfolding.
Sorry this was so long… just wanted to add my thoughts…back to lurking.
Rosie: 100000% agreed.
Rosie: 100000%agreed!
windyg…boy, you are really twisting my words around now…I simply meant that intolerance and hate is ugly no matter which side it’s coming from…I was saying your close minded view of David is just as ugly as the kind of person you are portraying him to be, which I don’t buy one bit.
Don’t get me wrong, I agree with what you are standing up for, but I still think you are DEAD wrong about David AND your treatment of him is NOT right AT ALL.
Hi All-
As you know I very rarely come out of lurking but I just had to put my 2 cents in today.
First off my first reaction yesterday when I saw the video was why were both David and Charice at that club. They are both under age. Did the demograghics really fall into her fan base? I grew up in the city in the days of Studio 54 and the Roxy. I frequented many different and diverse types of clubs in NYC while attending art school. It may be some time ago, but I am not a stranger to different “scenes”.
For a very young, conservative, religious 19 year old from Utah this was not the place to bring him to as a surprise. For Charice and her management what were they thinking. The whole scene was far to mature for both of them. The people in that video did not appear to be interested in being part of her fan base. It all seemed a bit odd to me from the start. i di not get the fit.
From the conservative vibe that David exudes with modesty and all that (drawing longer shorts/skirts on a picture of a girl), I can understand the backtracking on the evening. He was not at a beach, he was in a club where the men were walking around shirtless. Come on this boy does not even wear shorts!
Homophobic or not this was clearly not his scene from the info we know about him.
And yes those tweets were alittle scarey but that’s where management should have guided him as to whether to respond to the fan base or not.
I might also add that twittering and texting can sometimes be a very dangerous medium. There have been times when I have misconstrued a text from my most dear friends. Nothing like a good verbal converstion!
I know I may have rambled a bit but I just had to comment.
Windyg, I feel your hurt about this issue even if I don’t agree that David has much to do with it. You do not need to be his fan, for whatever your reasons. Your choice. And you must interact in the world the way you will. Your story about the two men is heartbreaking.
I will say this, however. David has opened my eyes more to his world (his religion, his choice to support humanitarian causes, etc.) because of who he is. That world isn’t a natural fit for me. When I’ve been in David’s presence, I’ve been extremely impressed with his loving nature toward all he comes into contact with. Others feel the same, and that’s why we defend him.
Honestly, I had to read David’s tweets several times to understand why they could be taken in a way different from the way I took them. Then again, I followed some tweets from the young filipino girls who were nasty to David and Charice. They were more worried (illogically so) that Charice lured sweet David into a situation that he wouldn’t normally participate in. He seemed to be explaining that, and defending her, more than anything.
Just my .02 and I got 1.5 hours of sleep last night so I hope my lack of logic isn’t too glaring.
I cannot turn my love into “hate” by a tweet or two. I love David Archuleta no matter what.
rekrul, me too
rekrul, me three.
Ronald, Can you post Mom Julee Link again,please. I lost it. Thank you
vickilori
“People in our church still have their own mind and we do have hearts and compassion and love our fellow man”
I myself am a former member of the church of jesus christ of latter day saints and can testify first hand that when it comes to being gay, compassion is not a factor at all. I remember being 13 years old beginning to wonder about things like sexuality and feeling really alone cause it was always said in the church that it was a sin, it was wrong and to act on being gay would be a one way ticket into damnation… imagine being young and confused and wanting to turn to your community (the LDS church) but not being able to because you are afraid of being shunned. I remember the sister who became the social pariah of the our branch because her daughter did somethings that were not inline with church doctrine.
Also were was the compassion when black people where not allowed to hold the priesthood until the late 70′s?
It is understandable that David had the reaction he did giving how he was raised and where he grew up, however it is not excusable!
I am wondering if David would have said anything at all if he had not gotten the nasty Tweets that he got. I was not following it this weekend. Were those Tweets coming from people from his same background, or others asking what in the world he was doing there?
I am as gay as they come, and for those of you who know me, that’s pretty gay. I am giving David the benefit of the doubt. I think if some one was coaching him on the tweets (and it sounds to me like someone was) it was bad advice that he was given. I have been a fan from day one. I will continue to be so until he says or does something that I am convinced came from his heart that would be contrary to the kind and all encompassing person that he is. His follow up tweets today were, for me, reassuring that he is still the person I know and love…and I wouldn’t care if he couldn’t carry a tune in a basket, quite honestly. He has a lot to deal with in many ways and I do not believe his comments were meant to be against me or anyone in my community.
I am going to leave it at that and know that when I see David Archuleta again, in person, (and I know I will…several times…) and look into his eyes again, I will know that he accepts me as I am and as much as the next person in line…
Weird. I answered, freo, but guess I’m in moderation. From what I could tell, the tweets were coming from young girls. The ones that I know are filipino and not conservative at all. They do not like Charice. The jist was “why are you taking him to a wild place like that. That’s not Archie.”
The more conservative fans that I know were saying, basically, cool that he’s there for a friend.
mikesd#61 Love you and what you just wrote.
rekrul#55 Me four!
Not any of the negative comments about David’s tweets will ever make me think differently about David. He was just being himself, and so many interpretations of what he tweeted are just that: interpretations to suit their own idea of who David is.
i am absolutely amazed at the drama this has stirred up and the angst and analytical thinking over his every phrase. Would definitely make me want to cancel my twit account if I were David.
Mikesd, love what you wrote. “His follow up tweets today were, for me, reassuring that he is still the person I know and love”…
We know so little of what caused David to tweet yesterday. He had just talked to someone from that hint on his tweet. Could he have just been trying to defend a friend? (Charise?) Is that who he had been talking to? Did he feel like it was his fault that she was getting criticized so he jumped in to try to explain. Seems kind of possible and David-like. It also seems clear on re-reading those tweets that he is trying to take full responsibility for his being there. Pretty loyal friend, I’d say! There is more than one way to read between the lines.
Wow. I was firmly in the camp that no explanation was needed, however I also fully understand the desire to explain.
I mean there is a reason that clubs have age limits. A high end New York gay club at 1:30 in the AM, probably not a place for most teens. I would imagine David saw things he has not seen. Many teens/young adults would, regardless of their background or religion.
MUCH, much less of an explantion was needed. Funny Ronald, when I saw the tweet, my inclination was that David wanted to say something to his fans in a blog as opposed to the more more public venue. When he came forward on Twitter, I sensed he was stressed and needed to get it out-disregarding his instints to wait- no matter how inartful. Yes it was inartful. How many of us in our personal or professional career have said something, or sent an e-mail, in the rush of the moment- without thoughtful consideration. It takes a lifetime to learn to not speak, or speak less, when silence is better. The lesson that I see is David needs to and will begin to learn the art of spoken and written language, in the same manner he controls his voice and music. He will learn, or he will be counseled.
While the part of me who loves him and wishes him no challanges feels for him, the part of me who realizes he is in a very tough business, and will learn and grow from this, is quietly realizing at the end of the day, he is a young man, wise in many respects, kind hearted in all, but still developing. I read that “boys” brains do not fully develope until well into their early 20′s. That is why young man are so do so many crazy things- because the part of their brain that also considers the consequences is not quite developed yet.
David has a heart of gold. He is way more developed than most young men. The advice given to him, could have been better. He should have waited, until a quesiton came up. Or casually mentioned in a blog- he was at the club to support Charice. But at the end of the day, he will grow from this, I hope he will not be too hard on himself, and I believe his fans, gay and straight will support him. If they leave him, that is their choice and also their loss.
Perhaps pollyanna of me to say, David and his camp needs to simply drop this and move on and David needs to continue living his life, supporthing his charities, the good things he does we know about, and the things we do not, and doing his music. Easier said than done- as it is human nature for all of us to try to explain. I am still working on the art of patience and silence. I am thinking it will be a lifetime to get there.
debra5354, WOW--me, too. It had been pretty slow everywhere for quite awhile—then, “kaboom”. Don’t we all just love drama??? It’s been fun seeing David’s tweets through the drought—makes me feel like I know him better. I would be sad if he cancelled his account, but would certainly understand.
Laura #53, the thoughts you wrote about were my exact thoughts, also—WHY were these two young, under-aged kids there? I guess Charice is trying to promote her new song, but, I don’t know, seems like there might be better places to do so—and, I’m NOT talking about the fact it was a gay club, but a club at all at that time of night.
mikesd #61, I, too, loved your comments. I wish I knew more people like you.
For me, David just makes me feel better. Love his voice, love his music, love his nature. He has helped me through hard stuff, and I will always be a fan. Right now I feel like some of his so called “fans” are letting him down. I don’t think he has handled this whole affair correctly. But, isn’t a 19 year old allowed to make mistakes? We all knew he would make mistakes—I guess this one was a whopper. Fact is, he’ll make more mistakes. Is he going to be condemmed by the masses each time?
I’m glad he’s with family today. I bet he’s feeling pretty lousy.
David went to a venue to support a friend singing there. She sang. They left & went to have ice cream. Big whoopty doo. David meant what he said when he isnt into the party scene. He is 19 & Charice is 16 or 17, of course its not their kind of place. Its an age thing, its a bar thing. David is the most non-judgemental, kind & loving person. There are people here who are judging David so unfairly & its heartbreaking. You know what they say about making assumptions, “you’re making an a**s out of you & umptions”. He went to hear a friend sing, thats it, end of story. Nothing more to see here, clear the area, shows over. Please, enough! I wont be back to this site ever again(I know, you all feel a tremendous loss). I keep hoping things change here, because there are some beautiful comments here on occaision, but it never changes. You have that right, but I just cant be a part of it. So I truely wish you all well, I wish you alot better, than what some of you are showing David right now.
(I know it seems given my comment I dont mean it, but
I do. I truely wish you all well & take David at his
word, he takes others at their word).
raelovingangels #66: Brilliant comment. One for the vaults. Thank you for being here.
Mike, very thoughtful post!
Well Rascal, thanks… every once and a while I string some words together that sound like they belong.
I am very conservative with deep religious viewpoints, and deep compassion for people. I couldn’t care less who is gay and who is not. It’s not my business. I love people where they’re at in life. We all say and do things that in the eyes of someone else may be offensive and get blown out of proportion as a result. I’ve done things in my life that I would do differently if I could. People still love me, and those who turned their backs on me were never friends to begin with. So David was at a gay nightclub in support of a friend. He tried to calm the fan base with some comments on twitter which did not come off so well. People can and WILL find offense no matter what you say or how you say it, or what you do. It’s crazy, but it happens. If you were offended by how David handled this, then you have a choice. Forgive and move on as a fan, or stop being a fan.
I have yet to read the other comments but I have to respond to this:
RONALD on #17
…but still feel discomfort and fear at the overt expression of
gaysexuality).TO ALL
As I’ve said context is crucial. Am not just referring to where David is coming from but from where each reader -- fans or non-fans -- are coming from.
Some would be more sensitive to what David twitted on account of where they are in their lives now.
Take the case of windyg -- I see your strong emotions about this. And though am glad to see that you feel comfortable to share your opinions & sentiments in TDC freely, of course I don’t have to subscribe to the manner by which you choose to express or demonstrate your convictions.
Take my case. I live in a country where gayness is openly embraced and celebrated. Which may explain why David’s twits did not come off as bigoted to me at 1st blush. When I said that his defensiveness may be on account of the erotic and sexually explicit nature of the place — that was not a spin or safety hatch. Visions of him drawing a longer skirt over a girl’s picture in a gift bag handed by a fan immediately popped out. I have never felt compelled to defend David cos I have always regarded him -- even during his more awkward days -- that he can do this on his own (I do however think that he should not have addressed the issue in the 1st place).
In the same plane that people -- gay or straight -- would react w/o seeing all the twits that David received prior to his attempt to damage control.
I truly hope that this communication debacle won’t be taken as an opportunity to have someone be a poster whipping boy for issues greater than fans hating on Charice or for fans freaking out re the less than cherubic-like activities they find their idol to be involved with lately.
Fe,
As a fan I can forgive almost anything. As a writer and a critic, I call it as I see it.
In all the comments I have read today, I have not seen one person say they no longer supported David. You can be disappointed in someone and still love them. You can wish they had not said what they said, and still love them. We do it in families all the time.
David is getting a lesson in PR. And… I still love him.
To Rascal #74 i say amen…
for everyone else
- The last thing I have to say about this whole situation is that i worry about David, I worry about the negative effects that self discovery and self development in the public eye will have on him… hell most of us found ourselves in semi private life whilst away in college or amongst friend were we didn’t have to worry so much about what the world is going to think, we didn’t have to defend our choices to the whole world, David is not afforded that privilege.
Rascal,
What drew you to David in the first place? Was it is singing?
David as a person?
Whatever it was it was a big part of being raised in Murray,Utah as a member of the LDS faith. He even says that is faith is a big part and influence in his life,all of his fans know this. You knew he was a devout Mormon, and that he was not gay.
All the good work and great music is has done,and kindness to all his fans,humility,and great talent can be tainted from these tweets.
My family know him very well in Murray. They have gone to church with him for years he has been over there house, one of my family members his his sister’s best friend. They know before he was famous and he always been the kind, warm hearted, compassionate person to everyone.
I remember that picture of David looking up at you when your were speaking to him? That picture did not look like to me a person who has a mean or judgemental bone in his body. I love that picture. That is how I think of David.
Mikesd 61: Such a beautiful comment. What? You are gay? Gosh, I remember how much fun you are to hang around, to mosh pit with, your love for David and how I talked your ear off and everyone elses. Nice to see you chime in. You have common sense, don’t take things too seriously, and have a great sense of humor.
vickilori #77
Girlfriend lay off the moral-ism, Rascal is 1)a proven fan and 2) and objective writer. And as far as who David is people only know the David he puts forward to the people around him, we can only speculate on the inner David (i mean to say the private David the person he is when no one is around watching him).
Oh and girlfriend I was a devout gay Mormon in my youth.
Personally, I feel what Collegemom #35 and Mikesd #61 have expressed, in what is a non-issue to me. And pls don’t misread that as I’m not sensitive to anyone’s other feelings here.
But for me..
I really felt David’s “nerves” and confusion in his tweets, and whatever that came from… a need to spin, cover, explain himself, instruction from handlers, etc etc etc…THAT is what gives me the most pause.
That is the stuff I’ve wondered about since day 1 …all of us who love this guy, who see the “heart of gold”, sweet nature, and even despite his apparent groundedness and backbone…still know he’s only human.
And it’s this kind of stuff, the beginnings of the Fame bubble, and PR spin and on an on…that create the Brittany shaved heads, eventually. And it’s understandable! My thoughts have always been…and I hope I’m right…DA would more likely just go have a life and leave. But my point…Fame gets crazy. And it’s an insane life. This was a blip on the screen of the life of David to me, and a simple choice, that exploded into one of those celebrity dramas. At the end of the day, I just want David to be okay. I accept him and whatever he cares to share, but he need not explain his personal life or intentions to me. And I also don’t need to share all beliefs with him.
I still love what I love, his music, and who he seems to be to me as a person. So far, he’s done nothing to make me feel differently. That said, Fame can s*ck. And my wishes are for him to somehow navigate it all and maintain his sanity, authenticity, and life. A tall order.
I have a different take on this, which I decided to post on my blog:
http://souldavid.wordpress.com/2010/04/19/archies-lets-be-real-here/
vickilori,
In the 2+ years that I have been writing about David I have never made any public reference to his sexuality. Never, not once. This particular situation has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with David being straight or gay or blue or red or alpha or beta. I confess I haven’t a clue as to why you would even bring it up. I have made no reference to it, directly or indirectly.
Neither, in fact, have I ever made any disparaging remarks about David as a member of the LDS faith. What I have done is make factual representations about the official position of the LDS faith itself with regard to homosexuality. These are not my opinions, they are a matter of public record. Any associations to be made between the official line of the LDS and David’s personal views are for him to articulate, not me, and it is something I have never done.
Please resist your inclinations to paint those with whom you disagree with a broad brush that in no way reflects their actual statements.
HG -- amen! thank you!
Rascal,
Where in what I wrote said that you made disparaging remarks about David?
All I asked was drew you to David? He is a product of that culture,religion etc.. that you as far as I can tell find
not to your liking. He is a product of his faith and community.
He comes from this community. I guess there are parts that you like and other parts you do not like at all.
I enjoy the articles on the site about David, they are very thoughtful,some I agree and disagree.
My opionion is that you automatically assume what is in David’s heart by his tweet. I don’t see how you do that
when he has not a the life history that you have have and has lived a different life than all of us.
I just feel it is not fair to David after seeing the kind of person he has been for the past 2 years.
I felt Vicki asked a question sincerely, in good faith. I thought it was a good one. Made me ponder what drew me to
David in the first place. That is the million dollar question we have been trying to figure out. Lots of energy, money, time spent to be sure. Lots of joy, growth, fun and for me, I feel he has made me a better person. Even not knowing him. Whether it is his faith, his spirituality, his kindness, his music, or a combination of it all- who knows? Like trying to define why you are drawn to a certain artist, food, or people I guess.
JR #73, I still think that the two can’t be separated. Sure, if David saw a woman who had a very short skirt on a shopping bag, David would draw over it with a marker.
But what person who holds traditional beliefs and feels uncomfortable around near-nudity, would not feel a little extra discomfort because people expressing sexuality were also gay? That’s just reality…
I’m not at all trying to put devil’s horns on David’s cherubic forehead. Just calling it as I see it, and it ain’t that bad. Again, David can have good intentions, but in the real world that actually isn’t enough. David has faults, and he isn’t perfect! Still love him!
raelovingangels -- I saw the question as rhetorical.
I have written more about what drew me to David Archuleta than 99% of the rest of the fan base. It would take someone hours to go through it all, but, if one so chooses, it is all right here on this site.
Have at it.
You know -- I’ve been cruisin’ around the web reading comments on other blogs, and I have to say that this group is amazing. Honest dialogue, addressing the issues of intention and perception, keeping to the point, and not digressing into the prurient nor are we plagued by haters and trolls.
I’m so glad I hang out here.
Ronald, I guess it’s too bad David didn’t have the luxury of rethinking/removing his tweets that fast.
windyg:
I can understand and sympathize with your feelings about how gays are still being treated. One of my nephews, and one of my nieces, is gay/lesbian. My niece even owns a bar, which I’m happy to say is becoming a successful night-spot. Their friends join us for Christmas Dinner each year because their own families don’t want them at their homes. It is painful for them, as it must be for others, to feel so much animosity because of a lifestyle, so difficult to feel rejected by society, and sometimes by your own families. Being openly gay comes with a whole slew of problems, ones that you shouldn’t have to face, but unfortunately still do.
You’ve said how terrible it is to have society treat you that way, when you ARE gay. Is it not understandable to think that a shy, awkward, young, Mormon boy would not want to have to deal with all that if he is NOT gay? And his treatment is not just from people close to him, but from thousands, bombarding him with hateful tweets. How difficult would it be for him NOT to want to clarify things? I think it is unrealistic to expect him to have done otherwise. Even if he did it clumsily, I think it was done in the vein of self-preservation rather than a criticism of another person’s lifestyle.
How many people do you know that would willingly let themselves be mistreated if they could put a stop to it?
Rascal,
I have read probbably 90% of your articles and I have enjoyed them very much, especially the one that had a picture of David looking up at you, that was my favorite. The look on his face was just heartwarming.
I know a lot of what you have written about David. I just thought I would pose the question to put it out to everyone.
I think would drew me to David in all the things he says,does, sings is heartfelt and a big part comes from his family,community and spritual upbringing. I think those are some of the same things that some of his fans might have a problem with as well.
We will all find out soon when his Memoir comes out in June of what makes him the person that he is.
Thanks for putting up with me.
rascal, your first sentence is “Let me start off by saying that it has been a real challenge for me to view this situation objectively.” I appreciate the honesty as I tend to feel that is part of the problem with your not being able to give David a “pass” on this issue.
One point I wanted to make is I don’t see or interpret David’s words in the way that you do, so who might have the more correct understanding of David’s mind and intentions? Only David does. We are all speculating at the end of the day, are we not?
But aside from that, I completely understand how some people were hurt, namely many of David’s gay fans. I am very sad about that; sad that anyone was hurt. So I wouldn’t be so quick to dismiss your and ronald’s points of contention. Supposed that this was not a gay topic but a race topic, I have a feeling non-gay fans might be less quick to be dismissive of AND angry about your sticking with your positions even if they didn’t agree with them. JMHO.
That said, I also really appreciated HG’s take on things written for her blog.
marlie, no trolls is a good thing! And contrary to some perceptions out there of this place, admins do disagree with each other, don’t they? Um JR! I 100% agree with your POV on all of this! Well said.
Good night all. Can’t wait for a blog from David, better yet a vlog.
RONALD AT #86 -- take out the gay character of the place. Say let’s make it “hooters” (does that place still exist?) or any club that caters to male interests.
My theory is, David’s twits will still be with the same wording.
That’s why I do not get why some are inclined to immediately ascribe an anti-gay flavor or color unto his remarks.
More than the gay issue, what troubles me is the unsavory twits on Charice that has been sent to David. I do not understand why he should be burdened with that.
HG--
From your post:
I mean, it was only just yesterday that certain fans were rolling their eyes and expecting David’s homophobic fans to get over the fact that David was hanging out at Club 57. (And, yes, deep down, I could feel how excited they were that this, this, was the slow and early steps towards David’s public “coming out” ball, to which I say: that ain’t happening in I don’t know how many years. Be patient, or get over it.)
Boy, I sure could have done without that paragraph.
OK, I am so late to the party, but after scanning this and the last thread… and then reading David’s actual tweets… I am completely baffled. The way I would read his statements is
#1) It wasn’t his kind of place.
#2) Duh! [As in Rosie's #49 comment, that would be the context in which I'd read it.]
#3) He tried to clarify that it “wasn’t his kind of place”, not because it was a gay club, but because it wasn’t his kind of place--which I would take to mean… it was a bar scene with scantily clad people, drinking, etc. Those are a few aspects I would expect he might not be real comfortable with.
Obviously, and most certainly, I don’t know David. But what I perceive from the last two years of observing his public persona and listening to what he’s said about himself is that he is surprisingly non-judgmental—especially considering his background and the environment in which he’s grown up. I don’t get any kind of slur out of what he tweeted.
I guess we all read through our own prescription lenses. I know that I personally would not feel comfortable in a club like that either… it’s not “my kind of place”… the bar scene used to be fun, but for me… it’s not anymore. But that doesn’t mean I judge those who would enjoy the club as being wrong or bad or anything of the sort. To each his/her own. That’s how I would read what David, perhaps clumsily, was trying to say.
The gap is so great between what actually occurred, and the fan base reaction, it’s a bit surreal. I really feel sad for David, that he is being so vilified. And—the way I see it—misread.
And how much later, and I’m still stewing.
AnotherDavid #94 -- For the record, my reply to HG on that point:
I also think you are wrong in one detail. I do not think the “excitement,” as you called it, on the part of David’s more, shall we say, liberal fans, was actually about “the slow and early steps towards David’s public ‘coming out’ ball,” but rather about the impression that he seemed to be taking a rather public stand (in pointed opposition to a faction of his core constituents) in favor of diversity in general and of gay people in particular. The courageousness of this as a sociopolitical act was what was potentially exciting, not the implications about David’s own personal situation. This is of course what made it doubly distressing when he backtracked so strenuously: All the ground we thought he had gained was lost.
highervibe #95 -- you are of course free to see it that way, but I would suggest that we have to look at things in context. The reason why David specifically responded (on a Sunday, no less, when he is usually silent) was not because there was a twitterstorm about David being in “a club.” It was because there was a twitterstorm about David being in a GAY club. Does anyone really think such a storm would have erupted over David showing up in a straight club to see a performance? It would not have caused so much as a blip. And I dare say David would not have felt the need to explain or defend his actions, even if he had been uncomfortable in such a club.
No, this was all about the gay.
It’s a matter of perception. Even if David’s tweet may have been more about the strangeness of where he was seen, more than anything, the reaction was mostly about the gay.
David would have to be completely clueness to have missed the countless times that bloggers/fans/whoever have assigned him with that closeted tag. I didn’t personally see a slam in his tweet — just a clarification. He is so gentle. But sure enough, people were offended.
I know this: as a straight female, I want to be known as such. If someone said I was a lesbian, I’d correct them because that is just not the truth. That doesn’t mean that I think a lesbian is somehow lesser. I’m not sure that I understand that particular sensitivity. Some gay people also wear that aspect of themselves loudly — that’s how they want to be seen. I don’t take that as a slam on my sexuality — just that this is a part of themselves that is important enough that they want it known.
When this story first broke, I felt sorry for David. I knew this would create an uproar not only in his fandom, but also would be picked up by the non-fans and critics, who would have a field day. I thought, boy, this is going to be interesting. Fortunately, the latter hasn’t happened to the degree that I thought. I have no problem with David’s tweet reaction/clean up…I can hear his voice right now after Ryan tells him that everyone want’s to adopt him….”but, I’m only 19!”
What has happened instead, is that I have to read all the homophobic crap that is so insidious in our culture that people don’t even notice or understand that it’s real. What’s so sad is that one reference leads to another, from post to post, as people’s true feelings are allowed to be expressed, by degrees. And, sadly, they don’t even know they’re exposing themselves. This is the sad nature of homophobia and how prevalent it is in our society.
When I was in college, like most of my peers, I had a newfound exuberance to right the wrongs of those who came before me. Diversity that I had never known lay open before me. One day I was sitting with a fellow student who was black, and being the “indelicate” person I can sometimes be, I got into a conversation with him about racism. I staunchly reviled any thoughts racist. He went into a long explanation about how he felt one couldn’t change how another person believed, but that you can change, and thankfully now (this was 1980) socially expect one to behave in a certain manner. Racist behavior (we were on the Peninsula in the Bay Area) just wasn’t acceptable. He was fine with that. He also, I might note, came from the South. That was my first real conversation with a black person about racism. Possibly, my first conversation with a black person. I don’t think I ever saw an African American in my hometown before going to college. It really changed my thinking about the fact that I guess you really can’t change ones thoughts, but you could expect certain socially accepted behavior.
Then I read my favorite book to date, Invisible Man, by Ralph Ellison. What an eye opener. Probably not so coincidentally, I started coming to terms with something that had been nagging at me since I was, I think about 4, and had a total fascination with Ron Ely (TV Tarzan) and his nearly naked body whenever it came on to the TV set. It was just a thing of beauty to me…at four years of age. Go figure. Invisible Man is about a black man who passes in the deep south. He has very light skin, and Caucasian features. It’s the most amazing story about self-identifying…his analogy of paint, how the whitest paint can only be achieved by adding a drop of black into it; yet, a drop of black blood, and you’re black, whether you self identify as black, or not. Which also brings up another major theme, that of self-loathing, primarily brought on by the fact that, by passing, he was not only not being true to himself, but to those who loved and raised him, who were shunned by him, so that he could pass, and not undergo the tragic consequences of being black in the south during the time of the novel (I guess that could be today?). The free pass that he got from racist hatred, made him feel a traitor, a liar, a coward. What is the payoff?
Well, this lead me to “come out”. Lost some friends. Made some new ones. Lost 70 pounds and got a fabulous body to go with the new me. I digress. My God, the pain that was relieved. My grandparents were, as in everything me, AMAZING. They talked my parents off the ledge. What people don’t understand is that homophobia is allowed a pass, because parents don’t even know they’re children are gay. African Americans know their children are…African American. They share this bond of having a trait that many, many people condemn. They also, hopefully, give their children daily affirmations that their being black is a beautiful and lovely thing. They give them support and love, and they also share this bond.
This is not so with gay children. They live their lives passing. And, in so doing, they not only live the life of the traitor, the liar, and the coward growing up…they get absolutely no support or empathy from their parents. They (usually) do not share this trait that is reviled by a large segment…yeah, a really really large segment of society. Gay children do not come from Gay parents. This is both a biological and a sociological fact. What is even worse, some parents can be excessively homophobic. It’s like Adolph Hitler having a Jewish child. These children grow up hearing anti-gay rhetoric from peers, elders, and strangers. On TV. Everywhere. There is absolutely NO FILTER. Most gay children pass before puberty, and even those who don’t, it’s so socially acceptable to hate …they refuse to see what’s before their eyes. Well, until they have sex. But then, that’s the end of the self denial, too. Something so lovely has to have it’s nasty edged knife in the chest, but really the mind…now comes the awful realization that, yes, now everyone who told you they loved you unconditionally is going to hate you, be disgusted by you, or maybe just throw you away.
Which brings me to where I am in my head. Why did I have to read the posts tonight. First of all, the mere suggestion, no vehement statement that someone cannot be gay is, by it’s very nature, filled with homophobia and hate. Why would it even have to be defended? Is there something wrong with accepting and living with what you are born with? Oops, that’s in reference to me. Sadly, the people who come out and say…”HE’S NOT GAY” would probably be the first to abandon him if he were. By the very nature of one’s vehemence in “protecting” someone from anyone even considering it, they obviously think it is very demeaning and, for lack of a better word, horrid. That’s exposing one’s homophobia. You don’t see it, but…it is. And, wow, it really just stings. But, I guess that’s my cross to bear, living in an insidiously homophobic society. My bad.
Then I read that “yes, deep down, I could feel how excited they (certain fans…we know who we are) were that this, this, was the slow and early steps towards David’s public “coming out” ball”. I ask you. So what if I would like that to be a fact? It’s as if I’m hoping that someone join me in the Nazi Youth (yes, my second such analogy). I am very content, by the way, to let people be who they are. I am 48 years old, and the new gay laws say that you stop “recruiting” at 45. Something about the law of diminishing returns. But, God help me here, what’s wrong in the first place, with wanting to share something in common with such an incredibly talented, kind, compassionate human being? One can dream, but dreaming does not make it a reality. Sad, sad, sad. I’m so tired. I was supposed to go to sleep 5 hours ago. A case in point, of how one slap breeds another, and it’s perfectly acceptable, someone then felt it acceptable to reference Rascal having his “panties in a knot”…that’s an obvious slur, but you’ll note if you look that there are more.
Foolish people have said, how could you wish being gay on someone? It’s such a difficult life. Wow. I’m happy just the way I am. It’s YOU who try to diminish my life. By the same reasoning, I guess you’d tell African Americans to not have children, as in this country, they’d probably have a difficult life. Well, I guess at least they are visibly what they are, so they don’t have to listen to all of this socially unacceptable shit right under their noses.
Don’t even think that I’m going to sleep!!!
What I wanted to add was that defending so vehemently a person who you don’t “really” know that he’s not gay is not only a slap in the face to everyone who is, and is out, but it’s another jab in the chest to anyone bearing the the burden of coming to terms with their own sexuality. Sadly, it could be someone who you really love.
Another David. That was fascinating- really. Thanks for sharing and for the insights.
AnotherDavid -- coming out of lurkdom to thank you for sharing so much. But this “Sadly, the people who come out and say…”HE’S NOT GAY” would probably be the first to abandon him if he were” please do not make that assumption.
All of this has been very upsetting to a lot of people. There has always been some angst among David’s fans -- old v. young, male v. female, gay v. straight, mothering types v. cougars. It all boils down to the issue of defining oneself. This is what society teaches us -- to define ourselves so we can be categorized. Some of us better at it than others. Some of us reject idea that completely. Some of us live by it.
I wish this fanbase would stand proud and united with as much emotion as we like to muster when we feel personally attacked.
Peace.
FunnyGirl, the Capitalization was emphasizing those who are so vehement about it. Until you live it, you don’t know it. Parents, let alone strangers who put someone on an unrealistic pedastal, have thrown away much bigger investments.
And, yes, society does teach us to define ourselves, and Heaven help those in this society who would define themselves as gay. You don’t think a closet is just for clothes. It’s a very lonely, self-loathing, and fear filled dark small space. Homophobia is a life-long and life-shortening consequences.
Wow, I’m tired. Homophobia has life-long and life-shortening consequences. I think I’m going to try to sleep one more time.
#25 ronald … I’m sorry you misunderstood me…but I was probably ambiguous too in #22 … #52 I posted incorrectly, thinking it was windg who misunderstood me, but I see now it wasn’t. duh! I was really dizzy yesterday, lol.
Anyway, I hope that clears it up in #52 … I was in no way saying that gay people create the intolerance and hatred, cause I certainly don’t want you or anyone else for that matter to think that’s what I meant … I was trying to say that intolerance and hatred is ugly no matter which side it comes from … and sorry, but I feel vibes of intolerance and hatred from windyg and I think it’s ugly too. Unfortunately, it stems from so much suffering and difficult times, and I am sorry for that … but still, it is wrong to put that all on David. I think it is quite unfair for those who are critical of David to put this all on his shoulders. The guy just wants to sing.
rascal … you say that you try to be objective … yet you claim David’s statements were all about the gay. That’s a rather strong conclusion coming from someone who doesn’t really know David. Just as none of really know David.
Yet somehow we each have some sense that we know something about David from what he has shown us. I believe David would be just as uncomfortable, if not more uncomfortable, if there were that much nudity in a straight bar.
I do have to say, that I’ve posted before on another site, that if David were to come out, I would still love him and support him because personally I think he is one of the most beautiful people (if not the most) both inside and out, that I have had the pleasure of meeting.
I do however also support the opinion that he is not gay, because he said he’s interested in girls. That’s enough for me…until he says otherwise.
We all have our opinions. This is my strong opinion and I’m sticking to it.
anotherdavid … believe me when I say I don’t mean my comments above in believing David is not gay, to be a slap in your face either.
Your post above is so deeply insightful, I don’t know how to even begin to respond. I simply am merely choosing to support David in every way I possibly can. As much as I think David is a wonderful human being, he is not going to solve the world problems that all of society has played a hand in messing up.
To be sure, there are good things in this world too, one of them having the initials DJA.
AnotherDavid #99, oh dear, you’ve got me crying… I can hardly keep these false eyelashes in place! Thank you so much for sharing your story and your many insights.
What is particularly hurtful in this instance is that David, whom many of his gay fans have come to know to be compassionate and open-minded and suffer ODD as badly as the next lass, himself made the type of insistent comment you described that can be so hurtful, in reference to himself.
Highervibe #95, thank you for sharing your thoughts. Yes I agree: David was, in his own gentle way, trying to dispel the gay rumor. But the problem begins with the fact that he even did so in the first place.
There are a number of straight actors in Hollywood who insist on NOT giving a flat yes or no answer when asked if they are gay. Answering the question in the negative “would imply that there was something wrong with being gay,” said one actor recently.
And so what David did hurts -- particularly since it was done in the nervous-laughter, no-way manner he did it. (Which is a fair reading of, yes, the tweets…) I felt that sting that AnotherDavid describes: that David felt there was something wrong, or at least that people would somehow think less of him, if he were gay. “No worries,” he assured us…
As for whether David intended hurt or not, that isn’t the question. In fact, I’m certain he didn’t intend to hurt anyone. But please suffer me another analogy when I say that one can compare this to a teenager who is suspected of being gay, joining a group of bullies in calling a gay person a slur, specifically in order to avoid suspicion about himself. David, of course, did not use a slur. But my point is this: while the teenager may also be victimized by homophobia in this situation, he is choosing in this instance to give cover and freedom to the bullies.
What should David have done? What on earth are these crazy gays demanding?
Either not tweet about it at all (who cares? he has many gay fans and will be around a lot of gay people as a recording artist); do what he does all the time when he is out to support a musician friend -- send out a tweet while he’s there saying he’s supporting her (why the silence in this case?); or send out a simple tweet saying “There’s a lot of rumors going around as to why I was there. Just so everyone knows, I went there to support Charice. Everyone should buy her album coming out on May 11! lol” That would have been fine, and wouldn’t have betrayed a fierce desire to avoid association with the gay.
MomWithODD #105, thank you for clarifying. I actually sensed that that was your actual point, and that was why I inserted qualifiers in my own comment. While I still don’t agree with the tendency to equate what you would term “intolerance” on both sides, I definitely can see where you’re coming from. Thanks.
KathyH: “I know this: as a straight female, I want to be known as such. If someone said I was a lesbian, I’d correct them because that is just not the truth. That doesn’t mean that I think a lesbian is somehow lesser. I’m not sure that I understand that particular sensitivity. Some gay people also wear that aspect of themselves loudly — that’s how they want to be seen. I don’t take that as a slam on my sexuality — just that this is a part of themselves that is important enough that they want it known.”
I could’ve said the exact same thing. Thank you for that.
MomWithODD -- You might as well say that all anybody wants to do is their job, and not be bothered with the consequences of actions or statements made outside that context. Well, everybody lives in the world and must take responsibility for their words and actions. David included.
In solidarity with AnotherDavid’s remarkable comment (you’re not going to see that kind of thing on any other DA fan site, folks), I have to say that I am troubled more by the comments and attitudes from the more outwardly reasonable, middle-of-the-road folks than I am by the obviously ignorant and the clearly bigoted.
The currently prevailing sentiments like, “oh, it’s no big deal,” and “let’s just get past this,” and “oh, he just wants to sing” betrays a far more subtle — and much more insidious — form of discrimination. The failure to take seriously the issues and perspectives being explored here minimizes and diminishes the people who are already marginalized. “I have plenty of friends who are gay” is a common substitute for real understanding about what constitutes second-class status: They can be who they are, it doesn’t bother me, but don’t ask me to equate their lives with mine.
And lest anyone believe I don’t understand how difficult this issue is for David, let’s review a bit of a recent report from Andrew Sullivan:
I should add that I dated a Mormon man for a few months a while back. What he told me about the LDS church’s psychological warfare on their gay members, the brutality and viciousness and intolerance with which they attack and hound and police the gay children of Mormon families, would make anyone shudder.
They hounded my ex for having HIV and for being gay. They followed him secretly, outed him to his family and persecuted him for his illness. When he was diagnosed with HIV at Brigham Young, he had to run out of the college clinic to escape those who wanted to sequester and punish him. He died a few years ago. Most of his Mormon family didn’t show up for his funeral. You want me to love these people? Let me say it’s my Christian duty to try.
thanks for replying to my correction, ronald! …. when David says “no worries” was it in a direct response to someone asking if he was gay? … If not, then I think you could be reading too much into these tweets…. and Rascal too. JMHO
rascal, ronald, windyg, kris … I’m not trying to take lightly the plight of the gay community. I’m just saying you don’t have to put it all on David and expect him to make it right with a few tweets.
And yes, I am guilty of taking the easy route. Sorry, I am no match for the intellectuals here. Just trying to support my guy!
Thanks to all here who have commented because to me whether I agree or not, I find that you have given me much to think about.
For myself, I hope that we can continue to agree or disagree and exchange our perspectives because it is when we stop and close ourselves off that we can miss out on so much.
The question about what drew each of us to David initially was asked. It was the voice initially and whatever it is I hear in it. I don’t know for sure what that is. The other thing quite honestly was that in him I saw someone who was brave enough to let me see some of him as he really is. I do not claim to know David but I believe he lets me see his heart to some extent. He helped me to believe again in the goodness of people. So I have said this is someone I can love and admire and yes he will succeed and he will fail as he is human.
Thanks to all who are also brave enough to expose your thoughts and sometimes vulnerabilities. I cannot know the pain some of you have gone through. I only know my own and my son who has shared some with me. He is gay. And I am still learning.
Coming out of lurkdom here -- let me just say that I have not completely read every comment on here yet. Windyg -- you are you quick to condemn someone that you do not personally know. As I understand it, there were some people who were saying he went to a gay club and didn’t even mention that he went to support a friend. They said they were not going to support him anymore and be his fan. Well, to me he was just trying to clear things up and let people know that it was NOT a big deal and he was there to see Charice sing. I think these people were not actually fans, just people who don’t like him trying to start trouble. I don’t think it matters to him if the club was gay or straight, because he would have went anyway even if he had known. I do not think he was trying to insinuate anything other than stating the facts. David does not want people to argue or fight.
It seems to me that you are judging David and others for doing the same thing that you are doing…which is criticizing people for living a different lifestyle other than what you and others have chosen. EVERYONE deserves to live their life in the way they want to. Just because a person chooses to be straight or gay does not mean that they are against others who are not. No one should ever be put down or made fun of for being straight or gay. We do not even know his sexuality, and it is none of our business anyway. This is a catch 22. It works both ways. Celebrity gays get flack for being gay, just as celebrity heterosexuals are accused of being anti-gay because they are straight. I don’t know if this has been posted or not, but this is a good unbiased article to me. http://www.derekjevens.com/home/?p=829
vermeer #92 marlie, no trolls is a good thing! And contrary to some perceptions out there of this place, admins do disagree with each other, don’t they? Um JR! I 100% agree with your POV on all of this! Well said.
Oh, you bet we disagree about things, but respectfully if we can! LOL
I am one of the people who just doesn’t believe that David is gay. I don’t care if he is, I don’t care if he isn’t. What I care about is that he is free to be whoever he is -- to date Charice or to date a man. That freedom is going to be hard to come by, either way. His fans want to define him. Some fans want to define him as unearthly, asexual, an angel, a messenger from God. What a burden for a human being to carry.
As I’ve watched this unfold, I’ve learned a few things about how each of us perceive prejudice. As I said at the top of the page, I allowed myself to believe that this was all about the erotic nature of that club. Certainly that played a role, and David would be uncomfortable in many situations of drinking and skimpy clothes.
But, we’ve seen David at clubs before -- and the fans were loving it that he was out and about. Remember Sundance? Those videos of David at one of the clubs there? No one ran screaming into the night because David was at a club.
And how about the videos of David with Lady GaGa -- talk about skimpy clothing. Did he run and hide? No, he asked where he could get a good sandwich. And we all watched and laughed and said how cool it was that he was interacting with other entertainers.
And didn’t David just go to a club a month or so ago with some singer/songwriters and perform there? Did anyone go twittering about that, saying “OMG, what was he doing there?” No, we watched in glee as David belted out Crush on stage.
In all cases there was a reason for him to be there -- we know David is not a club type of guy. But in no other case did the fandom freak out.
Not until David went to a GAY club -- even though he was there for a purpose just like every other time -- did the fans go berserk. That is what prompted David to respond. He’s never done that before that I can recall. His responses were not the best, he needs to figure out where he stands with his diverse fanbase. He needs to learn to say, “So what?” and live his life.
So when Rascal says it’s all about the GAY, facts bear that out.
107--Mom with ODD. Well, that’s a very different way to say that someone is not. And I agree with it 100 percent, especially when put that way. I learned that one 30 years ago. Never assume anything, and more than anything, I always recpect someone’s self-indentity.
Ronald, he’s 19, and this is NOT the easiest subject for ANYONE to deal with. Especially someone 19, especially someone in the public eye. I can promise you, knowing David, that something like this would never happen again. Dude, he was blindsided, and most certainly flustered. I don’t know David,, but I know me at 19, and I was anything but PC. Gee, I know me at 48, and I’m still not PC. In regards to what David said on his tweets…I don’t think anyone is going to convince me to not give him a pass. It just would be out of character for him to “rescue” himself at the expense of hurting someone else. That much is obvious. His response would not have the PC savvy of many of todays celebrities, but I wouldn’t have expected it to. I also don’t think any one needs to worry, he seems to have an uncanny capacity for empathy. He’ll adjust. Quickly. The logical conclusion to your arguments here seem to be that he issue a public apology? How terribly terribly terrible. Otherwise, it’s a case of yeah, not the best response. Do I give him the benefit of the doubt based on his track record? I do.
Rascal, I am in no way trying to diminish the pain I am sure that gays have and will face. Is it wrong for someone to say he/she has friends who are gay, but choose to be straight? No one who is straight could ever understand the pain that some gays have gone thru when they are not accepted by their families or society. David and others in the media have a tough time answering questions about this. I wonder how Mr. “Beyonce is hot” Bieber would handle this situation? He seemingly is after every girl he sees. Would he say he supports gays and it be a lie, or would he be honest and say what he really thinks? Some people who are straight do not know how to answer that question without getting in trouble…
I can empathize with the comments here. His tweets were less than politically correct and could be taken differently based upon your perspective. David has proven himself to be honest, caring, thoughtful, loving, and open-minded. David is not going to be anything but who he is, as we are who we are. If I were a gay male fan of a Mormon young man, I certainly hope I would have wished myself some luck with that and perhaps had some inkling of where he may stand on certain issues. If I were a staunch liberal female that thought that abortion was ok, and David tweeted an anti-abortion sentiment, would I throw up my hands in shock and lament that he doesn’t agree with me or accept me or my views?
Certain issues are deal breakers for some people, and that is fine. Stand by your convictions and follow your heart. I’ve been pretty quiet about this but I love David’s voice and what I think I know as his spirit. I love him and feel as though he is family. Sometimes family and friends have different views and beliefs but still share a common bond. Sometimes those differences are deal breakers.
JR #93, on Marlie’s theme that yes admins do disagree, and that yes it was all about the gay… We know what the buzz on Twitter was, and it was not about the erotic nature of the club. And David wouldn’t be consulting with someone to dispel a public image of visiting Hooters. In fact, I think his publicists might have been celebrating: if they could shake off David’s religious image and make him come off to the public closer to a confident available-to-the-ladies mack daddy like Justin Bieber, then surely they will.
Look, admins fighting at TDC! Isn’t this lovely?
As for the Charice stuff, oh we all know that’s some silly teens who are jealous and can’t stand the thought that David would spend any time in the late hours with, oh em gee, a girl his age! LOL I mainly feel bad for Charice because it’s always the women who gets castigated and vilified in these jealousy dramas, while the guy gets the privilege of being desired.
Ronald -- I disagree. David visiting Hooters would be just as unlikely as him visiting a gay club. I think he’d say that Hooters is disrespectful to women and that it is not ‘his scene’ LOL
I do wonder if most of those tweets about not being a fan of his anymore, and not liking the fact they thought he went by himself to a gay club to possibly find him someone, was from tween girls. Sometimes they can act quite stupid and are immature. They all think they are actually going to marry him or Bieber lol.
I only read about one person here who thinks this is a deal-breaker.
Really, we all love David or we wouldn’t even NOTICE what he was saying, what was tweeted about him, or wish that he didn’t have to respond to this crazy fanbase he has (all of us included!) This is after all, A David Archuleta FAN blog.
An unintended consequence of this whole debacle is… we are talking to one another about how our society treats gays, we are learning about how heartbreaking it can be to be gay in this society, and how wonderful it can be for someone finally be free to be who they are, we may even become more aware of our own slants and misunderstandings, and blind prejudices.
There is a fresh breeze blowing across this landscape …
#114…DaFanForever…you’re doing it right now. “Choice” is a very very wrong word for you to be weilding so lightly in this conversation. Rather than to go off for paragraphs again, I’ll just say that the way you’ve weilded it is to not understand it’s significance, it’s historical (and now) misuse, and the pain it has and will have caused.
As to: “Some people who are straight do not know how to answer that question without getting in trouble…”…when they’re in the public eye, they’d better learn. No exceptions.
ronald -- are we fighting? LOL
Ronald LOL, I had not seen that Bieber video! I feel the exact same way about David! LOL How do you think a video by a crying 41 year old would go over? Bwahaaa!
AnotherDavid #116, I think we’re actually pretty much on the same page. In my analogy, I made clear that I see David being victimized in this as well, and I don’t think David intended to harm anyone.
What I was trying to do was build upon your comment and try make as clear as possible, to those who don’t see it yet, what the problem was with how David initially reacted.
As for how David has dealt with it afterward, he has offered an apology and made a statement that he wouldn’t think differently of people because they are gay. While I could’ve done without the “friends” comment (that’s not the issue!), this is a better way to deal with the issue than what he had done before. It’s a step forward and I’m thankful for it.
Okay, Ron…I’m operating on, I think, 30 minutes of sleep. This is going to be a long day.
AnotherDavid #99 -- I was quite moved by your words. Thanks so much for your courage to share.
FunnyGirl #125 That’s hilarious. Okay, I’ll join you and we can be a 41-year old and a 54-year-old crying over not being able to see David Archuleta ALL DAY! (I sometimes feel that way when I’m in meetings and just KNOW that videos of David are being posted that I’m missing!)
#128, and anyone else, thanks. I read the posts right before going to bed, was enjoying myself reading, then my heart just sank on that post. Then I saw a few other posts that saw the bar lowered, and put their slant…and it just made me so sad. Tried to sleep for 3 hours, with the thoughts just swirling in my head and realized I wasn’t going to go to sleep without getting it out of my head. Well, that didn’t work (the sleeping part).
FunnyGirl #120, my point wasn’t that David would more likely be seen in a Hooters club. I was responding to a point of JR’s from above…
AnotherDavid, thank you for posting here.
Ronald- LOL I knew that.
Marlie -- LOL!
David’s first series of explanatory tweets came along when the story was already starting to spread in the online blogging community. Maybe the bloggers would not have reacted to the story of David Archuleta supporting his friend’s performance at a stripper club. I think this might have caught some attention, but perhaps not as much. Could it be that his particular reaction was savvy? He knew that because it was a gay club, it would spread. Thus, some of you read into the ‘gay’ part of the statement.
His orientation has always been something that people speculate about or share opinions about, and I guess Rascal can call me out as one of those mom fan types (there’s my little hot issue — become a middle aged woman and then go read the stereotyping comments on the internet. Better yet, be a female middle aged David Archuleta fan. Woo-woo, fun! I’ve learned all KINDS of new terms. We do all have our plights) because I’m going to say that I am saddened by this. David has a right to live out this private part of his life in private. There does seem to be so much wanting him to ‘be like me.’
I hope he keeps his sweet nature as he navigates through a public life that I think I’d have run from long ago. We are all different. We react and live differently. I have always felt as if I supported gay rights. I certainly don’t want to feel as if there’s a line of gay folk in front of me, arms spread to block my way, saying that I’m not thinking about it well enough or that I’m not using the right terms. Inform me if you will, but don’t force attitudes on me that aren’t there.
I can’t *be* gay. I have often said that I have gay and transgendered people in my life as a way of explaining my viewpoint, but recently I’ve learned that this statement can be construed as overly defensive. Now I know. Have to find another way to say that I want to care and I want to hear, but I also want David to be free to grow up as he will without so many people expecting too much from him.
Reading now the things I missed. My last post was in reaction to yesterday’s stuff. Ugh. I’ll never catch up. Noting David getting a lot of traffic these days, eh?
Marlie #124, I guess we are, but in the way that friends do
Though I don’t know if I’m arguing with you right now lol
Okay, now I have a context for that post that ired me. I’ve been responded to, read the original post over and realize that the link was put here because there is a “history” of sorts. Not knowing that, I took the bait. It was more of a personal barb, I now see. Well, my post is still valid, since the homophobia was still there. Judging from the response, and a couple others on that site, I guess I should have posted it on that site, though.
AnotherDavid, I hope you don’t see this post for about 9 or 10 hours because you are sleeping, but I want to tell you, anyhow, that your posts were wonderful and I appreciate your openness. We are all born with our own set of attributes and circumstances, aren’t we? And we have to move forward in life, using what we’re given, and hopefully live happily and perhaps, if we’re lucky and want it enough to work for it, have an impact.
David’s plight is his own. He won my ear and has not lost it once since the beginning. I do think that could happen in the future (although I doubt it) and I will say without a doubt that it would take something other than him coming out that would force me to stop loving and supporting him.
Rascal #110
David would have the same reaction if he walked into a strip club. This is not something he would be comfortable because of the overt and out there sexuality.
I thought I was done with this, but when I saw that article from Andrew Sullivan on his situation, Why would you bring that into the mix? You are fueling this way more than it needs to be. It is a horrible story, but there was no need to bring then into talking about David tweets about being at a gay club. Not all LDS families react the same way. However, why no examples of the opposite. The point is there was no need to amp this up for more than his tweets that you were hurt by. I am sorry if that affected you so much and hurt you.
I feel maybe if this is the way that you think of LDS people or church people who love David maybe I should go somewhere else as this does not feel like a very welcoming place to be lately. I do not like the way some on this site lump all church people together and that we teach hate, not true.
David is not a political official, Why aren’t you tough on Obama? He is against gay marriage and has said so. I think maybe David is an easy target to take it out on.
David is just a singer with a sweet disposition and a big heart and cares for all people not matter who they are.
I think David’s reaction is reasonable when you realize where he’s come from. He’s a very innocent young man who as far as we know hasn’t even had his first kiss.
LDS social events are tons of fun but the dress and behavior are very modest--no tank tops or tight tops, no going shirtless, no short shorts, no mini-skirts. No drinking or drugs, no kissing or fooling around, no suggestive music or dancing. Walking into a club like this one or Hooters or anything of the sort would definitely make David uncomfortable. It has nothing to do with how he feels about gay people.
I can relate. I’m not used to seeing overt sexuality, either. It doesn’t mean that anything other that, though.
And, if saying that you have people in your life oriented that way that you accept and embrace is a deal-killer as regards acceptance, it’s time to give up. Some people just won’t be pleased no matter what.
#115 marlie … I don’t think you can compare ANY of those other bars you mentioned to Club57 … if Club57 was a straight bar with scantily clad women, you bet that would definitely be uncomfortable for David and stir some of his fans up.
But yes, the gay part does raise up the hoopla even more. If it’s about the gay, then I can understand too if David was uncomfortable being around half-nude gay men. That doesn’t mean he is anti-gay. It means he doesn’t know how to handle that. And frankly a lot of us don’t either. Is that considered offensive … it shouldn’t be and it’s not meant to be. So David and the rest of us are labled homophobes because of it? Isn’t that judgemental? Who has any right to judge like that … gay or straight?
#133 Kathy … thank you for that … I was thinking that too … do we have to be careful about anything that will be misconstrued as being patronizing or anti-gay?
David said he has gay friends and it doesn’t change how he thinks of them. Yet, that isn’t good enough for you, Rascal? You have to put him down for saying that? Really?
David did not say that he’s against gays nor does he condemn them, yet he is now getting misconstrued for what he did or did not say.
No argument here about the inequality and unfairness that the gay community has to bear. I just think anyone who is being critical about what David said or didn’t say, need to (please) get off his case and stop trying to read anymore into things. sheeesh.
it’s a very good point made here that we are able to have discussions about this back and forth.
I HATE to even imagine what vile comments are being said about David on all those non-fan sites that have picked up on this.
He doesn’t deserve this.
sigh
anotherdavid--Ok I am confused. What am I doing right now? I am not a great writer like some of you on here so…please explain what you mean. Thanks.
KathyH, (and MomWithODD)Please don’t ever feel that saying ” I have gay people in my life” is bad or wrong or not politically correct. I welcome people saying that to me because it makes me realize that they have more understanding and treat us all the same. I am lucky to live in Southern California and in an urban neighborhood that is hugely mixed. We all get along famously but I know that is not the case everywhere. Please continue to say that…even say “some of my best friends are gay”. I don’t take offense at all ( and as I have said before I’m as gay as it gets!)
Now, if you start saying…”I see dead people…” that’s another story.
MomwithODD- I agree. Just because we maybe do not understand all of what homosexuals go thru, BUT we are trying to still be supportive, compassionate, understanding, and just plain caring people about this…we get critized for it! We get treated like we are anti-gay! What do you expect us to do? WE ARE TRYING…and still some are being judgmental to us? This is ridiciouls!!
FAfan4ever, I think the judgment is coming from all sides, actually, but the discussion is good. I feel as if everyone is trying to really hear each other.
Thanks, Mike! I think I was just shocked when I saw “Oh, no. Did he really just say, ‘I have friends who are gay’” on another site, and then another mention here. Made me get the strong feeling that there’s been some talk about this while I was out of the room, so to speak.
I am very glad he said it. He also added that it made no difference to him.
thanks, mikesd … I love you’re sense of humor, btw
… I actually have a few gay friends (only a handful, cause I don’t have many friends I will call TRUE). One friend I lost because of aids. Although I feel I did more for him than others, I always regret that I didn’t do more. I was close to a couple of college friends in SF that were both gay, one was a woman and the other a guy, and they went out together…go figure! But I lost track of them when I moved away. Then there’s two very dear and close lesbian friends that are a hoot and took me to my first gay bar … it was in KC and it was NOTHING like club57 … truly, I don’t know what I would have done if it was, and I can’t imagine what was running through David’s mind as he was faced with it. Good for him though. I think he handled it well, even though he might not live it down across the internet.
I have to say that every time I click submit, I fear I will tick someone off and someone will tell me to go away.
I am conservative and was brought up very sheltered, but I hope no one can say I’m close-minded. I don’t know why I’m getting so riled up here … after all, everyone here are fans and there haven’t been any dealbreakers, except for one, as marlie said (and from the looks of it, it didn’t take much at all to break that deal … whatever).
Bottom-line is I am concerned for David’s well being and happiness, even though we don’t know each other, lol (but he did recognize me the last time I saw him
. But I have to trust that he will do what’s right for him and things will turn out for the better for him.
MomWithODD #140 I don’t think you can compare ANY of those other bars you mentioned to Club57 … if Club57 was a straight bar with scantily clad women, you bet that would definitely be uncomfortable for David and stir some of his fans up.
No, that’s true, you are right to a point. Lady Gaga certainly was scantily clad when she was with David, though.
I think I was responding to the comment somewhere up above that David isn’t into the club scene at all and he would say “that’s not my kind of place” in any club. I don’t know who said it, though. It’s a maze of comments LOL
Suffice it to say that I still do not think there would have been a brouhaha at all if it wasn’t a gay club. Go-go girls (do they still have those?)
would have elicited a chuckle from the fans, but not an outright frenzy. The frenzy started with the fans on twitter going bonkers.
Depends on the extremes of the club, I would think. A stripper or girly club? You think fans wouldn’t freak out about that idea — and if we could somehow connect Charice to the event? Because, honestly, with the girls I saw, Charice was a definite part of the equation. She is their hot point.
I have struggled with whether to post the letter I received from David in December ’09. I think it’s a bit of an insight into the kind of person David is and why he does certain things. I talked about the letter recently on here and why I wrote to him. I think this letter maybe needs to be read right now. I hope that I don’t in any way betray David for posting this, as it does show, to some extent, his religious convictions. But I would like to share it with all of you in hopes that you may have a little better understanding of David. It is written on blank computer paper with a sharpie marker and is five pages long. So, here goes:
Hi Julie, (sorry in advanced this is so long)
I pray every day, throughout the day. The best way to keep your relationship strong w/ Him is by keeping in contact w/ Him, which is prayer. I don’t speak to Him w/ memorized words, because that’s not how I talk to someone who I have high respect for or to my parents. Remember He’s our Heavenly Father, & He knows what you’re going through, & cares about you, your husband, & each one of your kids. When you pray, let Him know what’s troubling you or what’s on your mind. Let Him know what you love & appreciate in this life. If you have a question, just ask Him! Only you can decide how strong your relationship w/ Him will be, because it’s up to you on how much of an effort you’re willing to make & how hard you’ll try to get to know Him. What goes hand-in-hand w/ prayer & knowing God? Service. Charity. There’s no better way to know God & the Love of His son, Jesus Christ, than by serving others. That’s what Christ is all about. That’s what love is all about -- thinking less of yourself, & more on how you can help others out whether it’s your family, neighbors, friends, or even strangers!
That, Julie, is how you will find the greatest happiness. We stop looking at how we make ourselves happiest -- help others, & we end up finding the greatest happiness. The greatest way God answers prayers is through other people around us. The love of God might be closer than you think, & you’ll know Him even better through the examples if others who have given themselves to the Lord in His Hands to be His instruments & servants. They think about how they can better the lives of others through their actions, & by these people is the Glory of God shone. The Glory of God? His love.
So you’re unsure of things? Ask Him. Who knows better than God? Pray w/ real intent & sincerity of heart. “Ask & ye shall receive. Seek & ye shall Find. Knock, & it shall be opened unto you.”
“If any of you lack wisdom, Let him ask of God.”-James1:5 (or something on those lines haha)
When you pray, do it in any way you feel shows most reverence. I think it’s respectful to pray on your knees when you’re alone & to yourself. But you can pray sitting, standing, & always keep a prayer in your heart. After you pray, be still, & let your thoughts & mind be clear. Give yourself time to think so that the promptings of the spirit can replace your confusion. He may not always answer in the way you want or at the most convenient time for you, but if your desires are good & you’re patient, It will come at the right time. ((david has right double underlined here but I don’t know how to show that))
So be patient, & have faith! Don’t get discouraged. Remember the Lord loves you, & knows you so well. Much better than I do, & even better than your closest friends. Get to a point where He is your best friend, & you won’t feel alone or at loss. Remember He uses His servants to do the answering of prayers too, & if you allow Him to, He will make you an instrument in His hands. I have gained my own personal witness of these things, & testify to you that you can gain your own as well. I know that God lives, & that He truly answers prayers. His son, Jesus Christ, our brother, died for us so that we could return to live w/ them again. All the best to you in your challenges, & remember you have the power of prayer & the Lord on your side.
Happy Holidays to you & your family!
David Archuleta
Julie,
Thank you for sharing the letter. It is so interesting to read his words. I feel like I am reading his journal. I don’t mean this in a bad way. I have a feeling we will see more of this in his book.
Still not sure how I stand on the whole gay club thing. I do think the tweets were made because it was a gay club, but I also think, based on the video that I saw, that there were many levels as to why David would have been uncomfortable there. The language being used and style of clothing or lack of clothing to name just a few. Obviously not his type of scene. And I don’t think one has to frequent these type of establishments to get somewhere in the business. There are plenty of solid artists who have not played at or been seen at these types of places and do well. And for the record, by these types of places, I don’t mean gay. I have been to plenty of dance clubs that are not steaming with half naked people. And if this is what it takes to “make it” then I hope David doesn’t “make it”.
thank you freofan. I’m still not sure I should have posted the letter, but I’m truly hoping it will help people see the type of person David really is.
I have gay friends, I have black friends, I have straight friends, I have hispanic friends, I have Catholic friends , I have LDS friends, I have atheist friends, I have jewish friends.
There, I said it. Does this now mean I have no friends because I have offended everyone? I hope not, because they make my life a richer place. Have any of these friends ever said something that I could take offense at? Yes, but I choose not to take offense, and to try to understand. It seems to me that most people here are trying to understand the different viewpoints. It is, in the end a choice.
Doesn’t everyone just want to be treated with respect, and understanding? Including David?
Oh my goodness, that letter.
“That, Julie, is how you will find the greatest happiness. We stop looking at how we make ourselves happiest – help others, & we end up finding the greatest happiness.”
David has a huge heart and so much love for his fellowman. That is all I can say.
#151 I’m speechless … thank you for sharing, Julie
… and thank you David.
Thanks for sharing the letter, Julie. I am not surprised but I am comforted now that he can make his way with his spirit intact. He is so strong.
Well, I missed the “fans” on twitter going bonkers, and I’m sure I missed a whole lot more. I don’t follow other sites, and I don’t do Twitter myself… I can only go to David’s twitter page on my computer and see what he has tweeted, himself--not any of the incoming--so I won’t even try to imagine what all the commotion was about. As I said, we see things through our own lenses, and I think I was taken aback to see David pilloried for saying he had gay friends, and it doesn’t change how he thinks of them. I feel the same way. I’ve had gay friends over the decades in various cities I’ve lived in, and still do. If I’d tweeted that, would I be getting bashed? I had no idea that was an un-PC thing to say. (Thanks so much, Mike, for your opinion on that score, I’ve appreciated your comments.)
ronaldsf -- I’m wondering if something was deleted from David’s tweets? I’m feeling really dense, I just don’t see that he was “dispelling the gay rumor.” Even if, at some point, he reveals himself to be gay (it’s of no consequence to me, if he is or isn’t… he’ll get equal respect from me), I can’t help but wonder if he would feel that that club was “his kind of place”?
I’ll just have to take your word for the frenzy that ensued, after David’s club visit… and Rascal, I can see your point… how it would be because it was a gay club. Still, I would think the upset would be with those making the hateful comments--which thankfully I didn’t see--rather than with David. (I’m as uncomfortable with conflict as it appears David is.) I have a lot of empathy for those who have endured intolerance for being who they are. At the same time, I see their gift for pointing out these deep, irrational reactions for all to see. It’s sites like this that bring more understanding to the world. What a great conversation!
Well, at this time this first round of this polemic is dying in the gossip world, for sure this will be a referente in the future for him, but in the bright side i can’t stop to think that this all weekend mess all over the internet gossip sites, only mean that even if David has a hard time to accept and see him himself like a celebrity…..he is a celebrity. And what he do and say is relevant to the media.
My only point is that the world need to accept that David has his own style of life, and even if his link with the mormon belief was used like a justification about his general behavoiur, i don’t think is only because that, most of the beliefs(religions) has the same ‘social style life’ : (Bookaholic #139) ”no tank tops or tight tops, no going shirtless, no short shorts, no mini-skirts. No drinking or drugs, no kissing or fooling around, no suggestive music or dancing”(the same in my protestant church and in the adventist church from my friend); and in all of them we can find people who like to go out their church rules to do differents activities to have fun, (because tbh be in a club don’t make people inmoral either), i mean at the final is a mix between that religious values + moral rules + social interaction + personal choices = INDIVIDUALITY.
And in order to accept that individuality people need to let David be David,he need to grow and try to figure out what he really think about many hot subjets in the life and (people need too) to stop to claim he’s like he’s because this or that, he still trying to become someone and we don’t have yet the final product of all this progress or process.
To all the fans : be more tolerant, less predjudiced against each others, less anxious about who David will become, less selfish about to who is he representing the best, he’s a human
and not the throphy of any groupe of fans , for sure,for me and for now, He’s a Great Representation of what a Good Human Being need to be in order to have a better world, but keep in perpective that he’s going to mature and take position about many things in the life, because the life is like that……just saying
Again : I hope you understand my english and in consequence my call.
Love you all
Peace !
All I can say is “wow.” This is quite a thread. Thanks to everyone for participating in such a heartfelt and constructive manner. The evolution of notingDavid, JustDavid, and TheDavidChronicles has been marked with occasional difficulties and controversies (one or two of them just possibly having been perpetuated by yours truly), just like every other community-oriented site, but I have to confess to feeling awfully proud right now that the TDC members and admins are able to facilitate a discussion like this.
I want to collect my thoughts a bit more before I comment on some of the very interesting thoughts posted here recently, and particularly on David’s letter. Thank you, dreamerjulie, for sharing that. It felt to me like the right thing to do (I wasn’t sure it was the right thing to do before I read it -- despite what many people may think, I actually do feel quite protective of David), and I suspect David would agree.
I treasure you all.
BTW -- dreamerjulie #151 _ thanks for sharing the letter, that help me to have an idea of his spiritual side speaking on his book, tbh i’m not sure yet if i want to buy it, good to know a glimpse of his way to say his message.
It’s interesting how David touches us so deeply for so many different reasons. Reading Julie’s letter from David reminds me of my own teen years, when I studied the bible intensively and went to various Christian groups etc. I was really seeking some fundamental truths, which I found much later… elsewhere. It’s not uncommon for a teen to be deeply religious. Eventually, I learned to separate the motives of the organization (church, ashram, etc.) from the individual’s (Christ, Buddha, etc.) initial intent and actual message. What humans do with a message has been proven, historically, to be mind-bogglingly cruel and misguided and wrong. I’m sure I don’t need to go into detail… my point is, it can take years to reach anything resembling spiritual maturity, and I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some twists and turns in David’s road. Or not. Time will tell. All we can know at this point is that there is an enormous and genuine compassion for his fellow humans at this point in his life. Reading through my own lenses, as usual!
You know that this all started by David going to a bar to hear Charice sing. He was in ‘New York’, so what is the real surprise here?
David has been on tour with the Idols, with McFly, with Demi Lovato, on his solo tour, on his Christmas tour. Most of you know where he has travelled to in the world for some of this.
Do you think for one moment that this is the first occasion that is out of the ordinary or just the one caught by the media?
David is not the one here who is having trouble along the way growing up and seeing the world…
Please turn the page of this story.
SB
In case you hadn’t noticed, SB, there is a great deal more to this story than just the facts of the case. It has initiated important and constructive sociological discussions that many people are finding extremely valuable. That has always been a significant aspect and intention for this particular site and community. There are plenty of other pages for you to visit if you are dissatisfied with the speed of this one.
Highervibe, very good points. I was also devout like David as a teen. Religion was an escape for me and a source of stability. A lot of teens find stability in that, as well as the associated social aspects such as religious youth groups, etc. Later, as many people do, I matured, traveled, and my perspectives became more fuller and broader.
highervibe #163 — Agree completely. You can almost feel the youthful exuberance in his letter. He has found a truth that many are blessed enough to find and, as I remember from my own discoveries, one feels the inclination to “share the good news.”
dreamerjulie #151: Thank you so much for sharing that personal letter from David! It definitely gives us an insight into the type of person David truly is.
I must take issue with you, Rascal, on this, with all due respect, sir. I got those tweets from him, at first puzzled by the questioning one about whether or not he should tweet or blog. I actually had to go online and figure out what all the fuss was about. Personally, I saw nothing hateful, bigoted, or homophobic in David’s tweets. My first impression was that he was referring to the “club scene” as not being his scene. And when he tweeted “NO worries…” I don’t think he was making any references to it being a gay club, instead, he was referring to it being a nightclub in general. I do think that his response could have either been worded more carefully, or perhaps he should have had no response at all and kept all of us guessing! lol…
And yes, Rascal (and RonaldSF) I “get it”. I detest intolerance on any level, but in *my* ‘objective’ interpretation of David’s tweets, I found none of what you, and some others seem to have read into it. But, that’s the thing about objectivity -- it tends to be quite subjective sometimes.
That having been said, I shall do what David would do -- forgive him for anything he may not have done to perfection, smile warmly, and anxiously await his next live performance, his book and his next CD.
One final thought… In my opinion, intolerance tends to beget intolerance. How sad a situation would it be if someone (no names please) incorrectly interprets David’s comments as intolerance or bigotry and they in turn become intolerant of David’s musical and literary efforts?
On the contrary to some who remember devout religious convictions as teens, I know very few teens who are/were devout in their religious convictions…and I went to a Catholic school for all 12 grades. I, myself, took my religion for granted and was just going through the paces when I was younger. Through my college years and early 20′s I experimented a little more, but have since become more devout in my faith and am searching for answers, hence my letter to David.
Thank you for being ok with me posting the letter. Again, I hope that I’m not betraying David in any way. I just thought it was a good time to share it, in light of all the hoopla.
I found that after I read the letter, I saw David in a different light. I could no longer see the sexiness in him so much as the complete and utter goodness in him. He is living out his convictions and beliefs to the fullest, imho.
Quick! Someone take a screenshot of post 161
in case proof is ever required….yeah- you know I talking about the first paragraph (the words in the parenthesis). I actully busted out laughing with the “dead” people part from Mikesd.
I carried this discussion in my mind all day at work. I was so pleased to read what has been added since. I can honestly say this has been enlightening, educational and provocative
(oops! Freudian slip). Thank you all for sharing, for challanging my thinking and for your honesty. Reinforcing that David’s fans are some of the brightest, most articulate people I have ever met.
If David doesn’t want to be in a place because it’s not his kind of thing (for WHATEVER reason) he shouldn’t feel obligated to defend that TO ANYONE.
I’ve been to places that offended my spirit and it had nothing to do with sexual orientation. Maybe I didn’t like the music being played, what was going on in the room, the vibe, whatever. Luckily, I could stay or leave without anyone harping on it endlessly, over-analyzing my every comment,or playing pop-psychologist when I didn’t spell out every thought and feeling in detail. He didn’t sign up for the crap that’s being thrown on him and he’s a whole lot more gracious and diplomatic about it than I’d be in his shoes (as you can see).
I have nothing but respect for him and what he’s trying to do with the gift he’s been given. I don’t agree with every single thing he does but I’m willing to be supportive, even when I have questions and doubts.
I choose to take him at his word when he says he has no problem with anyone. Why is there always this assumption that he has some sort of dark side or ulterior motive? He seems to be a pretty open, simple, frank, and, in the best sense of the phrase, free-spirited person. Somehow, I think it will be his so-called fans and not the music industry that will make him more guarded. I hope cynical and jaded won’t be close behind.
Thank you, Dreamer Julie for sharing that letter. I don’t know what David would think of it (and I don’t think the fanbase in general is worthy of it at the moment), but I’m feeling selfish enough to be grateful for that much-needed ray of sunshine. We’ve all been lucky to find the source of that wisdom-- it’s a rare thing in this world and should be appreciated for what it is.
raelovingangels: I not only screen captured it, I am laminating it LOL
Rascal:
Kurt1960 — whoa, whoa, whoa — slow down there, cowboy. I never characterized David’s tweets in such extreme language. Sheesh, I do enough exaggerating on my own, I don’t need any help.
A word I used on another blog to describe his attempts at diluting the situation with his tweets was “inartful.” That’s about as far as I’ve gone. Nothing at all like what you wrote.
The problem was the inclination for the communication more than the communication itself. This is where the crux of the issue lies, and which so many people are missing. People like highervibe — and you, based on the story of how you encountered the tweets — did not have the benefit of context here, which was that David’s tweets were in direct response to questions and concerns (the so-called twitterstorm) from a specific, conservative faction of his fan base who were essentially demanding answers for what in the world he was doing in a gay club in the first place.
The fact that he felt the need to answer these queries at all is the core of the problem — not what he actually said (which is also problematic, but only from the standpoint of a lack of sophistication — easily forgiven).
I wasn’t going to post anymore because I figured I’ve hashed everything out in my mind to death … and especially after David’s letter, well, like I said before … I am speechless!
#160 tibitibis I am relieved to hear that things are dying down (I hope David was not vilified nor ridiculed to death… I’m to chicken to look) … though I suppose I will have to put up with this still in my DA google news alerts for a little bit more, UGH! Really, it’s not the topic itself, but how they would slant it to ridicule and vilify David … and not to mention the vile comments that will pour in from non-fans, double UGH!
#168 Thank you Kurt for that … you said everything on my mind in one post that covered ALL my numerous posts in these last 2 threads, lol.
Thanks to those who didn’t agree with me and didn’t tell me to get lost (esp. rascal and ronald) … at least not verbally, lol
I sincerely appreciate all of you letting me speak my mind.
And finally thank you to those in agreement to basically not try reading too much into David’s tweets. I do find much comfort in that for David.
Kurt1960: Personally, I saw nothing hateful, bigoted, or homophobic in David’s tweets.
Did someone here say that David’s tweets were hateful, bigoted or homophobic? I am really lost.
#173 rascal … do you have a site that shows what was said on the twitters to David that caused him to tweet Sunday night? I have looked and the ones that were mentioned didn’t say anything like “what were you doing at a gay bar?”. I would really like to know.
#175 marlie … see #4
MomWithODD,
search.twitter.com
You’d have to go back quite a ways because twitter search is in real time. But I can tell you what you’d find: Literally hundreds -- perhaps thousands -- of tweets over the course of a single 12 hour period (Sunday, basically) with the words “David” and “gay” in them, and along the lines of, “OMG!! David was seen in a gay club!! I’m so confused!! What’s going on??!!”
#175 According to rascal, David made anti-gay statements: David has evidently responded to the firestorm of reaction to his thinly-veiled anti-gay sentiments with a couple of tweets including comments like, “I have friends who are gay, and they’re great people,” and “I have nothing against anyone, I’m sorry if that’s how it came across. I’m just not into the partying scene lol.”
#175 Rascal also said David is prejudiced: “Except, of course, when his word so plainly and unequivocally implies prejudice”
per rascal, David discriminates: ” … he hails from, represents, and appeals to a highly conservative, deeply religious community with canonical discrimination against homosexuals (and please spare me, beloved commentators, your hair-splitting equivocations about “the person” versus “the behavior,” it doesn’t wash).
sorry, I know I said I was done posting but marlie asked the question and I was just answering.
#178 thanks for the link rascal … unfortunately, I have to leave now, but hopefully I will get a chance to search later tonight.
just for the record, I hope I made it clear in all my posts that I strongly disagree with rascals quotes above and do not see how David’s tweets correlates to the vilifying comments that rascal posted.
gotta go.
Marlie7 #175 -- Perhaps I overgeneralized the statements of some, such as windyg. Clearly that person has taken task with David’s response.
Rascal #173 -- I stand corrected, you indeed did NOT characterize David’s tweets in such harsh light. I will agree that perhaps his best response in this whole matter would have been no response at all. I suppose I just got caught up in all the negativity. And I must admit that his comment about having gay friends was lame, and cliche. Still, I think this entire situation has been blown out of proportion. He got invited to a club to watch a friend sing, which turned out to be a gay club, and had a knee-jerk reaction to a bunch of twittering jerks. (Did I oversimplify that?)
Just did that search and I wish I hadn’t. The talk is still going on except that in my search, the talkers were overwhelmingly of the ‘he says he’s not gay, wink wink nudge nudge type.’ To me, this is ugly behavior. I strongly believe that a person needs to be able to present themselves to the world in the way they want. I am turned off by the comments people make to suggest that they ‘know.’ Orientation is more complicated than mannerisms or behaviors. I so long for a world when we can be more accepting and loving of individuality.
#183 kurt … see posts #179 #180 … oh, yes he did!
#184 Kathy … then I’m afraid I am too chicken to search myself
I see that my David-at-the-threshold-of-adulthood comment in the last post has been overtaken completely by later developments in this “all-about-the-gay drama.” But, wow, what insightful conversation that transpired here while I wasn’t looking, lol.
Anyway, thanks dreamerjulie#151 for posting David’s letter. Being nonreligious, I still couldn’t help getting affected (maybe even infected) by David’s palpable ‘excitement’ in his faith. Perhaps, I should also hunt out my Kahlil Gibran books to approximate his euphoria…
I have literally been sitting at my computer for 2 hours now soaking all this in. I suppose I don’t have to comment, but I just have to say it feels like I’m reading a book that I just don’t want to put down. I have learned so much in the past 2 hours—thank you everyone.
dreamerjulie, I’m not particularly religious, but after reading David’s letter, I can’t help but think that he might think, (if he were reading here), that a lot of good has come from all the uproar, in that it brought people from all walks of life together on a blog to discuss hugely controversial issues so better to understand.
AnotherDavid, #99, I, too was almost in tears when I read your post. I remember when I was in college having a “best friend”, who was a boy, and I KNEW he was gay, although it was never spoken. (that was in 1975, and “Gay” was a dirty word it seemed-at least in my community). We did so much together--he was so much fun to be with. One time, he was sad--to the point of tears in his eyes--and he asked me if I would still be his friend if he were gay.
I was so nervous—I didn’t know what to say or to do, because it was something that I just couldn’t talk about at that time. I didn’t want to KNOW—even though I already KNEW. I am ashamed to say that our friendship was never the same after that. When I read your post, it brought back all those memories--swoosh! And I feel so ashamed--I always did. I could feel your pain in your words.
With life, growing-up, maturity, watching my own children grow, I am happy to say that I have become much more accepting, or at least I feel I have. I know David will change and grow, too. He will only get better, I think, in every way.
Thanks for letting me blab….
The title of rascal’s post is “Public Frustrations” which is what I feel right now. There have been some thoughtful and respectful comments all around fandom on this subject and there have been some that are not. I know that you think there are larger sociological issues to discuss here and in a broad philosophical way, this may be true. I certainly added to the discussion myself. (http://mormonarchuletafan.wordpress.com)
But I would hope that when it comes to something as personal as a letter David wrote in confidence to a fan about such an intimate subject, that he never expected to hit the web, you all would be respectful before you begin parsing the words. Over-analysis is what got everyone in this mess to begin with. And I know a thing or two about privacy being violated in this fandom -- you can email about it if you like. I have kept my mouth shut on a hundred different rumors and facts about David since that time and will continue to do so.
If/when David says something similar in his book, let’s have at it. But until then, I think this is a huge violation of his privacy. My opinion, take it or leave it. Just wanted to throw it out there as I certainly have no sway over what you do or do not discuss. It just reflects my level of frustration. I may regret this in the morning, but right now, I’m so dang tired of it all I just feel like screaming: “WHAT IS IT ABOUT BEING A DEVOUT YOUNG MORMON BOY THAT YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND?!” You either like it and all that it means or you don’t. Don’t try to twist him into something he is not and then complain because he didn’t stay in that unnatural position.
Peace.
Wow. Did someone get the info on the freight train that just crashed through here? Talk about “A Tale of Two Julies”!
I’ll take the first!
rascal #165…”It has initiated important and constructive sociological discussions that many people are finding extremely valuable.” You can tell me that you are more concerned about the value of the lessons for other people than using David on this stage for verbal trash?
SB
Wow, SB, why do you continue to read it if this is such “verbal trash”? Please don’t pollute yourself. I’m sure there are conversations going on somewhere that adhere more closely to your standards. It’s not like we are sending this stuff to you via email. You actually have to come here and read it to know what it says.
Marlie7 #115: “And how about the videos of David with Lady GaGa – talk about skimpy clothing. Did he run and hide? No, he asked where he could get a good sandwich. And we all watched and laughed and said how cool it was that he was interacting with other entertainers.”
Marlie I always felt that was scripted in part for local sponsors of the jingle thingy, but if you re watch the video, you could clearly hear Lady Gaga say at one point when they are talking about her outfit, that he (David) was embarrassed and he says that he was in fact embarrassed.
MomWithODD #179 and #180 (and Kurt1960),
Since we are now parsing to a fare-thee-well:
“David made anti-gay statements.” Note, please, that I did not say “David is anti-gay.” When read in the context of his response to the firestorm about what he was doing in a gay club, his initial comments on the matter are justifiably interpreted as anti-gay. Indeed, why else would he have attempted to clarify them?
I also said his words implied prejudice. I did NOT say he was a bigot or that he himself is prejudiced. The description I made of his comments as “inartful” speaks directly to this. He expressed himself poorly. But the characterization of his statements stands.
As for characterizing the sentiments of the community he hails from, I made no explicit or implicit suggestions about whether or not David subscribes to those same views. It is simply a statement of fact, related not to David himself as much as to the constituency he was attempting to address with his comments. The notion that I am somehow suggesting that “David discriminates” based on this has no basis at all. It is simply incorrect.
While I did agonize quite a bit about posting the letter, I decided his fans, of all people, would appreciate it. I’m really not that worried about it affecting his public image or that it may get into the wrong hands. See, here’s the thing…all the stuff that we read about here online about David…not much of the general population even has an inkling of it. Many of my friends, coworkers, and family have not a clue about anything going on in David world. They all know how much I support David, but don’t know anything about him. Even young teens at my son’s school who like David’s music don’t know any of the stuff we agonize over, here on the internet. Also, what in the letter would in any way be offensive to anyone. Friends and family who are religious and who are not religious have all been equally impressed by the letter. Even those who don’t like him at all are not offended by his words, and were actually impressed by his maturity.
While I still agonize a little about posting this personal letter, it helped me through some tough times and I hope it helps some others through some tough times as well. It’s actually still helping me. And what David said in the letter should really come as no surprise to anyone in this fanbase.
So, while I expect some criticism for posting the letter, I did it with the purest of intentions.
goboywonder #192 I’m sure he was. My point was that he did it anyway, and no one tweeted, “OMG, what on earth is David doing with Lady Gaga? She’s practically naked! David answer us, PLEASE! We are so confused!”
In fact, that video was analyzed, parsed and replayed over and over without anyone freaking out because David was standing next to a half-naked girl with 2-inch eyelashes. Everyone knew he was likely a little out of place, a little uncomfortable, but it didn’t make the fans go into a frenzy.
So, the discussion is still going on, I see. Well, if nothing else, this is truly insightful.
And I do understand where different folks are coming from. I just think David got lost in all this.
Here is what I mean, bearing in mind Rascal’s comments:
The currently prevailing sentiments like, “oh, it’s no big deal,” and “let’s just get past this,” and “oh, he just wants to sing” betrays a far more subtle — and much more insidious — form of discrimination. The failure to take seriously the issues and perspectives being explored here minimizes and diminishes the people who are already marginalized. “I have plenty of friends who are gay” is a common substitute for real understanding about what constitutes second-class status: They can be who they are, it doesn’t bother me, but don’t ask me to equate their lives with mine.
This is a really important point to make, and we can’t dismiss the underlying homophobia/heterosexism implied when we make statements like this. I also recognize that David, to some extent, did seem to trivialize the discrimination and belittling of a marginalized community like LGBTQ people with his tweets. My issue, however, believe it or not, Rascal, is less about David’s limitations on this issue and more about why you and others didn’t give David the benefit of the doubt in thinking that he was not being homophobic.
I know way back when David was on American Idol, he made a comment about “lacking black skills” because he’s “from Utah” (when asked to imitate Randy Jackson). I could have easily been apoplectic about it in thinking that 1) David was reducing my race to a certain kind of stereotype (which he DID), 2) he basically used his Utah background as a reason why he “lacked black skills” (which carries with it all kinds of implications about who exists in Utah, who doesn’t, and what blackness/whiteness might mean in this context and from his understanding) and 3)God dang it, he belongs to a religious faith that once discriminated against my peeps, okay? All these things should have turned me off the guy way before I developed ODD.
But, I have been able to keep a certain faith in David that he’s an okay guy who wouldn’t racially discriminate. As a fan, I want to believe this, but on a superficial level, there are things David does that helps convince me he’s still cool all around on this subject.
He’s been able to establish deep friendships with the likes of Alexandrea Lushington, Jordin Sparks, and Shontelle (whoops! There goes that “I have black friends” argument), he listens to Kirk Franklin, and he seems genuine about it (and definitely not in a John-Mayer-looking-for-street-cred kind of way, which David clearly does not have because, for me, he doesn’t need it). Listening to The Voice, getting an inkling of the kind of character he seems to be, makes me give David the benefit of the doubt.
Some of my disappointment in this conversation is that David was NOT given the benefit of the doubt. Worse, pointing to his faith as a reason to distrust his comments, or to think he’s capable of homophobia (rather than pointing in general to our SOCIETY for why David might think a certain way) indicates a failure of faith in David. Either you believe David embraces ALL his diverse fans, or you don’t.
Heck, SOCIETY (and not David’s religion) suggests to me, a black woman, that guys like David would have an attitude on par with John Mayer. But, from what I’ve been able to observe, even though David once expressed his love for Mayer, I don’t believe David has his attitude. That’s just my faith in him as a fan.
If he ever tweeted anything that would make me lose my faith in him, any of you are free to remind me of this post.
Rascal: “David made anti-gay statements.” Note, please, that I did not say “David is anti-gay.” When read in the context of his response to the firestorm about what he was doing in a gay club, his initial comments on the matter are justifiably interpreted as anti-gay. Indeed, why else would he have attempted to clarify them?”
Trying to understand. If David was simply asked if he was gay like in that interview in Asia, and he says no or that he is interested in girls, that’s not anti-gay? But because it is perceived by some that he was only responding to tweets about his being at a gay club, then it’s anti-gay? Is that accurate?
Marlie #195, not the same, we already knew why he was there--paying his dues.
Rascal, Did you purposely fan the flames of the firestorm?
dreamerjulie, I know you did have the purest of intentions. Honestly and truly.
I apologize for yelling.
marlie7- ha ha that reminds me of the video with Shontelle and the poop talk. They kept talking and then moved the camera toward david and POOF…he was gone! Another example of something he tried to avoid. It was so funny!
goboywonder: I think I just got lost in the logic -- not sure if it is me, or you LOL
Thanks, Dreamerjulie, for sharing your letter. It really does give us another glimpse of David.
at least I think it was poop talk ha ha. It was when he was on tour with her during the Jingle Jam or Ball. You could tell he was uncomfortable with the talk and kept moving farther away. I will have to go back and check that video out again. I remember thinking it was funny. He is such a dork as he says.
HG — and, I assume others — you are missing my point entirely. (I guess I am not the communicator I thought I was).
It is absolutely not that I think David was being homophobic. That is not it at all.
What I do think is that David missed an opportunity to stand up for what (I hope) he knows deep in his heart is right. Instead of taking the opportunity to defend the defenseless, he capitulated to the pressures of his conservative constituents and essentially absolved himself of any “suspicious” associations.
Folks, let’s look at it this way:
There’s a kid. A boy. Perhaps twelve or thirteen years old. This boy knows that he is different. He doesn’t like sports. He likes to sing. He finds himself thinking about a couple of the other boys in school. He loves David Archuleta more than any other performer he has ever seen. He twitters. He sees that David was at a gay club to support a friend and watch a performance and suddenly feels that if David Archuleta can be seen by the rest of the world to be hanging out with gay people that maybe it would be okay if he, himself, the boy, might be gay. But then, he sees that David said that he would “never intentionally go to a place like that.” Oh, David tries to explain himself later, but the damage is already done. Maybe David doesn’t think being gay is okay. Maybe the boy continues to think he is not okay.
David is not a homophobe. But David did not take a stand when the chips were down.
Marlie7, I hear ya, my head is exploding and my heart is breaking. Moving on.
rekul #55, ditto.
Rascal: This makes me think about the two boys and two girls who sat behind me at David’s Christmas concert in Montclair. The article is here http://www.thedavidchronicles.com/2009/12/montclair-moments/
Both of the boys were gay, and I’m not sure about the girls. They were all so excited to see David in concert. They knew every song, every word, screamed and even cried with me when David sang Ave Maria. I loved sharing the excitement with them. (I was with my sister who likes David, but doesn’t have ODD, so her reaction was really not interesting to me LOL)
They were all as in love with David as I am. Now, I wonder how they feel.
Goboywonder, I’m trying to sort out why my every instinct tells me this recent incident was different, and this is my best attempt to explain. I saw the interview you speak of and I just didn’t get the same sting of shame and defensiveness watching it. David had just been asked The Big Question directly in front of a camera, and just kind of HAD to answer. This recent incident was a long protest that he didn’t have to give, about simply being at a gay bar, that was intended to allay fears (as if they were justified) that he would ever intentionally step into one. (Let’s remember that the Twitter buzz was not about the eroticism of the place, but about the fact it was a gay bar.) That’s quite different.
Hellogorgeous, I share your vibe about David and would totally feel fine going up to him and feeling like he’s okay about who I am as a gay person. I couldn’t wait to sing and harmonize with him.
At the same time, I would love the chance to explain to him and say guurrl, there were homophobic implications in what you said and this is what they were. There’s something called the closet and invisibility and we just can’t support this idea out there that it’s not okay to be gay. I wouldn’t have to be very pointed about it because this is David. He would very quickly say sorry, and I’d say that’s alright but did you really understand what I was just saying? If he did, then great. If not, then I’d explain some more.
I don’t think this is a static question, about whether to have faith in someone or not, but on how to deal with a person I see is changeable and can learn and grow. I was hurt, and I would explain why. That’s… kind of it.
There’s a kid. A boy. Perhaps twelve or thirteen years old. This boy knows that he is different. He doesn’t like sports. He likes to sing. He finds himself thinking about a couple of the other boys in school. He loves David Archuleta more than any other performer he has ever seen. He twitters. He sees that David was at a gay club to support a friend and watch a performance and suddenly feels that if David Archuleta can be seen by the rest of the world to be hanging out with gay people that maybe it would be okay if he, himself, the boy, might be gay. But then, he sees that David said that he would “never intentionally go to a place like that.” Oh, David tries to explain himself later, but the damage is already done. Maybe David doesn’t think being gay is okay. Maybe the boy continues to think he is not okay.
David is not a homophobe. But David also did not take a stand.
This, Rascal, should have been the original post. Because that scenario definitely gets the point across.
Which, to be honest, I didn’t get as your main point. It sounded like the “public frustrations” were based on David saying that Club 57 “wasn’t his type of scene” (which it ISN’T -- we all know that). That’s why some of us were scratching our heads. Knowing what we know of David (from what he has revealed to us in public), no one is surprised that can’t-even-bare-his-chest-or-legs, writing-letters-and-liner-notes-about-brother-Jesus David would have posted tweets that indicated his discomfort in the midst of such a scene.
And as someone posted on my blog, David (who has shown his willingness to do an avoidance dance, as is suggested with the time when he speedily left a Jingle Balls backstage conversation about poop) STAYED at that club. He didn’t up and leave once he saw what it was about.
As for the gay kid reading David’s tweets, I would like to think he was encouraged by the “I have nothing against anyone” message because, as a David Archuleta fan, he just might give him the benefit of the doubt.
I must say, I have such great respect for all the posters here. Though I do not agree with some, I still learn from all.
Isn’t it a wonder how one person can attract such a diverse and passionate fanbase simply through a song? Isn’t it weird to think that despite all this fierce sparring, we all assemble in the same concert halls to hear him sing? Surely there is room for all opinions…
I don’t think this is a static question, about whether to have faith in someone or not, but on how to deal with a person I see is changeable and can learn and grow.
I totally agree, Ronald. I see David as “changeable” and willing to learn and grow. I love your scenario too. A sit-down and chat about what the implications were in his tweets is the kind of thing David could have, and I would like to think he does have. At the very least, I hope someone is having that kind of discussion with him right now, in the event that David is scratching his cute little head to understand why some folks may have been offended by his tweets.
I just wanted to say that my greatest pleasure of being an admin at TDC is…
… being able to edit my own posts.
Sorry, just had to crack a joke.
HG — I am glad I was successful in making the core of my arguments clearer. I did post the following comment on your own site, which says essentially the same thing, but in a much less personal way:
The courageousness of this as a sociopolitical act was what was potentially exciting… This is of course what made it doubly distressing when he backtracked so strenuously. All the ground we thought he had gained was lost.
Yes, I read that comment, Rascal. Point well taken, except I still don’t think he lost much new ground he might have gained.
There’s still time for growth.
THIS…”As for the gay kid reading David’s tweets, I would like to think he was encouraged by the “I have nothing against anyone” message because, as a David Archuleta fan, he just might give him the benefit of the doubt.
Thank you HG It seems to me he put this out there pretty plainly. Whether someone is gay or straight does not change how he thinks of them or his friendships.
ronaldsf #212 — That’s funny! MY greatest pleasure of being an admin at TDC is being able to edit your posts, too!
Rascal! Can’t top that one!
dreamerjulie..thank you so much for posting that. I am unaware of your story or the reasons you wrote David. He must have really sensed that you needed that letter. It is so special. I haven’t ever posted at this site tho I lurk and find it very interesting, usually. I have to say that reading that letter has been the must profound experience I have had in this very strange world of fandom, other than hearing and seeing him opening night at the CFTH concert. I wish everyone here could have experienced that.
I know..I am too bland for this site… but thanks anyway!
LilMe: Isn’t it a wonder how one person can attract such a diverse and passionate fanbase simply through a song? Isn’t it weird to think that despite all this fierce sparring, we all assemble in the same concert halls to hear him sing? Surely there is room for all opinions…
I truly was thinking something similar to this just a few minutes ago. And I was hoping that we will all be here spazzing when his new CD comes out, and the differences in our perspectives will be more about which song we like or don’t, and whether we think he’ll be touring soon or not.
Touring? Did I say touring? Oh, Please
Thank you for the many positive comments about the letter. I just finished a discussion about this with my husband and am now really second guessing my decision. I feel like I need to apologize to David for posting the letter. I’m not going to delete it at this point because I think it’s too late for that. Too many people have seen it. But I’m starting to wonder if I betrayed an implied trust of David’s, which I had no intention of doing. See what happens when you act before you really think and maybe talk to other voices of reason.
Thank you to Momjulee for your response. I have the utmost respect for you and overreacted myself a little. I guess I was just hoping to shine some light in all this recent turmoil. David has such a way of calming the waters, even when he’s not intending to.
Ronald #208, thanks that helped me to understand where you are coming from.
You know, we put David on such a high pedestal he has no margin for error. “Everybody wants me to be what they want me to be” (Easy Like A Sunday Morning). I can’t imagine the weight on his very public shoulders.
This is my first time posting, and I hope I won’t have darts shot at me! I have a different take than most of you on the letter posted above.
I feel that the letter posted by dreamerjulie was a very personal and private letter that was meant only for her. David shared some wonderful advice and thoughts in that letter that I don’t think were meant for the eyes of the internet world. I know that many of you have been touched by David’s words in this letter, and I was as well. However, I felt guilty like I was reading something I had no business reading. I imagine we all have shared very personal thoughts and feelings with someone in a letter, and it does kind of betray them when you show it to everyone. A letter like this feels very private and confidential.
I hope I don’t offend anyone with my thoughts about this. I just felt strongly about this and wanted to share my feelings. Thanks.
dreamerjulie #151
I respect your decision to share your very personal letter from David. It is a beautiful expression of his faith. I am not at all surprised to hear that he prays constantly. It is obvious to anyone near him that he is in constant contact with spirit. This is my way of expressing that fact -- others might say, in contact with Spirit, or with Truth or with God.
In any event, he is tuned in to “that which is sacred.” We who love him are the beneficiaries.
dreamerjulie #220 I’m so sorry you feel bad now to share the letter, i don’t see why some overprotected fans are complaining about this, if it was you personal desicion.
We share opinions, point views and experiences to help (or try to help) people to have a different perspective of some situations, you never know how many people can be touched for the letter you just share, i don’t see the betrayal behaviour at all, but in contrast a non selfish person capable to spread a beautiful message, i hope people can see the bright side of your action and stop to give a negative feedback, like David’s say the message is wonderful so don’t let small details take it away from what is really important (or so , talking about imagine)so focus people, focus . G’night
Well, I it now seems to me that David’s words have been taken apart, put back together, used to define him differetly by almost every person. It upsets me that people are more upset by David’s words than they are by all the horrible words in many songs on the radio today and even songs sung on awards shows that essentially defile/debase women and on and on and on. Here we have this wonderful, love-filled 19-year old doing his best to be the best person he can be and he is now written about in tabloids and has people laughing about him on talk shows. Another couple years of this and David will throw in the towell and just sing for himself. Let’s just keep casting all those stones and never think back to every single comment we have made as 19 year olds.
#193 rascal … since you took great liberties to INTERPRET David’s extremely short and rather hasty, not-well-thought-out tweets and twist them to fit your thinking and bias, I am merely interpreting your very blatant critical comments that you took more time to write and think about:
I wrote that you said David made anti-gay statements, because you said “David has evidently responded to the firestorm of reaction to his thinly-veiled anti-gay sentiments with a couple of tweets including comments like, “I have friends who are gay, and they’re great people,” and “I have nothing against anyone, I’m sorry if that’s how it came across. I’m just not into the partying scene lol.”
Well, when I read, “… reaction to his thinly-veiled anti-gay sentiments”, to me that means you were saying that David had anti-gay sentiments, albeit thinly-veiled. Therefore David has anti-gay sentiments (I incorrectly wrote statements instead of sentiments in my original post above). You wrote it rascal, I’m just interpreting it, like you interpreted David’s tweets.
I wrote that you said David is prejudiced, because you said … “Except, of course, when his word so plainly and unequivocally implies prejudice”.
Well when I read, “Except of course when his word so plainly and unequivocally implies prejudice”, to me that means you believe what David said implies prejudice. Therefore David is prejudiced. You wrote it rascal, I’m just interpretting it, like you interpretted David’s tweets.
I wrote that you said David discriminates because ”… he hails from, represents, and appeals to a highly conservative, deeply religious community with canonical discrimination against homosexuals (and please spare me, beloved commentators, your hair-splitting equivocations about “the person” versus “the behavior,” it doesn’t wash).
When I read, “please spare me … your hair-splitting equivocations about ‘the person’ versus ‘the behavior’, it doesn’t wash” … this means you are implying that you still connect David with the rules of his church discriminating against homosexuals. Therefore David discriminates. You wrote it rascal, I’m just …
If you say I’m distorting your words and taking it out of context … then that’s also my same argument back at what your doing with David’s tweets … distorting it and taking it out of context. You can say you didn’t mean it that way, or gosh I didn’t think it would come across that way or that’s exactly what I meant to say … but if you say I’m distorting your words and taking it out of context … then you are taking me and everyone else here for fools, because that is exactly what you did to David’s tweets.
#225 collegemom … oh no, please don’t tell me this has made it into mainstream media … I’m going to be sick and cry now. I’m literally shaking.
#196/ hellogorgeous… i cosign with everything you have said in this post. this particular part hits me where i live…
‘Heck, SOCIETY (and not David’s religion) suggests to me, a black woman, that guys like David would have an attitude on par with John Mayer. But, from what I’ve been able to observe, even though David once expressed his love for Mayer, I don’t believe David has his attitude. That’s just my faith in him as a fan.’
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yes,faith in him,as a fan. a faith in him that caused me to give him the benefit of the doubt 2 years ago, after i discovered the mormon churches practices relative to blacks that weren’t abolished until 1978. can’t tell you how that bit of info coming to the surface gave me a little pause initially. i thought, ‘what the heck are you doing girl, losing your everloving mind over and supporting this young man who belongs to an org that for years, up until you were a teenager, followed practices that viewed and treated your people as second class citizens’. chew on that for a moment. this child of the south, born and reared in very close proximity to some historic civil rights battlegrounds and hotspots -- where people shed real blood and lost their lives for the sake of justice and equality -- embracing and accepting this impossibly and frighteningly gifted young man, giving him the benefit of the doubt when many in my situation would have viewed that bit of info about mormon history as a dealbreaker, no questions asked, buh-bye.
he’s still young. he’s going to make many mistakes, and more faux pas along the way. part of the process in growing up, finding yourself, acquiring wisdom. i can’t explain this in a way that sounds rational and logical, i’ve given up trying to even understand it, but something in him has a hold on me, removing doubt about who i perceive him to be, from what i’ve observed of him these past 2 years. i don’t have him on any pedestals, nor think he’s possessed of any superhuman qualities, except when he’s singing. i take him for who he is, who he’s shown himself to be -- in all his sometimes awkward, inarticulate, shy, humble, self effacing glory. maybe soon i’ll be able to articulate these thoughts better, but i hope you get where i’m coming from. never shared these thoughts before with anyone in the fandom, and it’s been cathartic.
#227/ it hasn’t gone that far momwithodd. it’s out there, but you know what -- it’s out there. we have to deal with it. it will like everything else go away in due course. it’s taking the bitter with the sweet, and as his star rises, the more intrusive and crazy the reportage of things he says and does will be. he’s a public figure, in an industry driven by a press fascinated w/gossip, innuendo, lies at times and half truth. don’t have to like it, but it’s part of the package that comes along w/the career he’s chosen. i refuse to hand wring, or cower in the face of negative press. trial by fire can produce, after the heat has passed, a thing of greater substance, depth and strength -- with hopefully a little wisdom thrown in for good measure. for us all.
GG, Thank you for sharing that. I appreciate your sharing feelings that are private and tender. I have faith in him too.
MomwithODD I know it was mentioned on Chelsey Lately
It’s out there. Along with quickly posting and passing articles about every current and past Idol, every current and has-been pop/rock/r&b star, every current and in rehab actor/actress/author. And is sandwiched somewhere in obscurity between Larry King’s latest divorce and Oprah’s unauthorized biography.
Today is Ronald’s Birthday -- happy birthday!
And here’s to you….substitute your own name
I just finished a presentation that went well so I missed most of what transpired yesterday and this morning (my time). Talk about work intruding into more important things. I see that the TDC forum is still a-blaze.
Deeply appreciate the candor and strength of conviction of the commenters here. For AnotherDavid and DreamJuie to disclose profoundly personal matters and for the rest of the posters who continue to stick to their guns without losing their heads in the process are what makes working for this site such a learning experience.
I do recognize however, that we could have done the learning w/o David being sandwiched in the fray. But am confident that he & his handlers will grow stronger from the experience. Rather than be bruised, he will likely choose to find a way to distill wisdom from this experience.
ps: I also like to thank my co-admins for still not strangling me at this point!
Wow, some wonderful posts are coming out here. I echo your sentiment JR about the candor and strength of conviction from people on this sight.
And Rascal, I am glad that you finally clarified your views about what exactly David did that let you down. “What I do think is that David missed an opportunity to stand up for what (I hope) he knows deep in his heart is right. Instead of taking the opportunity to defend the defenseless, he capitulated to the pressures of his conservative constituents and essentially absolved himself of any “suspicious” associations.”
What I’ve seen of David, is he has never seemed to be a confrontational kind of guy. In fact, he admitted to that very thing in Ryan Seacrest’s interview. But, there is hope, because in that same interview he acknowledges his own discoveries of how voicing an opinion and speaking up is not a selfish act and that it is ok. I feel in time he will discover that he has the courage that you are hoping he will exhibit.
Julie -- #151, thank you for sharing your letter, and I don’t think you should be concerned. After reading it, I feel its something David has been wanting to share anyway. One of the main reasons he said he wrote the book was because people kept asking him why he is like the way he is? I feel this letter is just a pre cursor of the book.
ggdoorsfan -- I have seen you all over the web and am a huge fan of yours.
And HAPPY BIRTHDAY RONALD!! I hope its a fun & exciting day for you. Peace everyone and good night. (At least for me) haha!
“You know, we put David on such a high pedestal he has no margin for error. “Everybody wants me to be what they want me to be” (Easy Like A Sunday Morning). I can’t imagine the weight on his very public shoulders.”
I love this comment, goboywonder. That’s what I thought when Rascal posted the story of the little boy. I know David made mistakes with the tweets, but to me they felt like the honest and first public mistakes of a 19 year old guy. And my reaction to your little boy story, Rascal, honestly, was to ask myself if this, a cause that you are close to, necessarily be David’s. There’s a whole lot of hurt in the world unrelated to sexual identity issues. Yes, he should learn and/or hire a publicist. But I really feel for him if he’s expected to carry the huge burden of getting everything right when we, some of his older fans, are having to explain and explain and explain our own thoughts to try to be clear.
And the story does keep radiating, and more of it is that same wink, wink, nudge, nudge bull that everyone does now so everyone gets away with. Am I the only one to think that kind of thing is potentially more damaging to the cause of gay rights than David’s fumbled tweets? If a person can’t just be accepted for who they are, then young people, straight or gay, will feel compelled to continue to fake true feelings in attempts to not be seen in a way that will not draw public ridicule. Sad sad world.
Crap. Said that wrong. And I had the luxury of more space for more words than a tweet. I meant of course that young people will feel compelled to fake their true feelings in attempts to be seen in a way that will not draw public ridicule.
Also will clarify that I don’t mean that him being called gay is bad. Just that his sexuality is being discussed in a way to draw laughs. So angry!
About to rush off to work so I can’t play here long -- I recognize the sincerity in what certain commenters have written, but I sincerely wonder if they have read all the comments (at least mine and Rascal’s) through yet. (I’m addressing some who would disagree, not all.) I keep seeing some of the same points that I have at least attempted to address coming up again. Just sayin…
Oh, and thx marlie
dafan4ever, #204: interesting points about David moving away from Lady Gaga during the interview. As far as I can tell, he is uncomfortable with *any* display of sexuality.
Rascal, #205: You said EXACTLY what I have been thinking. No doubt David has young gay male fans who feel different. He may possibly even have young closeted gay Mormon fans. Like it or not, he has a public responsibility being a public figure, and he simply did not do the right thing.
It’s the diversity of David’s fans that interests me. I had to remember my instant “heart descends to stomach and audible groan” reaction to the “not my scene” tweet. I knew David had hurt some of his most loving fans. The next second my brain kicks in with “he meant the nightclub etc”, and that’s all I remembered until I kept trying to figure out your posts, Rascal. It is important and I struggle with subtle prejudices because I don’t want to have them. Young people (especially) should feel welcomed by David if they get whatever it is David has that kills us all. My projections onto David are that he has a soul equal to his voice, both will mature.
Rascal #205: Yes, I agree -- David missed a golden opportunity to stand up for tolerance and support for the GLBT community, particularly as I suspect it makes up a significant part of his fan base. But, either he was sorely ill-advised on how to respond, or a simple lack of life-experience on his part brought about his less-than-appropriate response. I still believe that his tweets are being misinterpreted as anti-gay, prejudiced, and homophobic. And while you in fact did not *directly* state that David’s response was such, you did imply as much, thus implying that David himself is anti-gay, prejudiced, and homophobic. And yes, I am purposely twisting your words as I believe in my heart that many are twisting David’s words.
In the midst of the twitterstorm that David was undoubtedly deluged with, many of them I’m certain were asking him if he is gay, he felt compelled to respond. A simple “No, I’m not gay.” would have sufficed -- no further comment would have been necessary. Or, perhaps no response at all to those questions would have been better, making him a ‘man of mystery’, so to speak.
I still wholeheartedly believe that this entire episode has been grossly blown out of proportion. I don’t agree with the way he (or his people?) handled this situation, but I honestly don’t think David intended to malign the gay community, or anyone, in any way.
I will admit that I am in awe of the fan community here, and the spirited and insightful debate that this has sparked. I feel humbled and honored to be in such great company.
For those of you who get upset about this continuing to play out in broader media sources, a caution not to click on the following link. This is, however, the real world of 24/7 celebrity media. If David has proven one thing, it is that he is eminently capable of handling whatever the press has to throw at him.
What this does show quite clearly is how the vast majority of the world is interpreting David’s tweets, and emphasizes an important lesson:
As any politician knows, a poorly-handled denial will get you into far more trouble than the original questionable incident.
No one would have cared one whit that David had been seen in a gay club. It wouldn’t have hit anyone’s radar in the general press. It would have been a big “who cares?” But… one rather loud, twittering group DID care: David’s conservative fan base. According to David, or his handlers, or his family, or whomever, the conservative fan freakout required a response.
It was the whirring sound of back-peddling tweets that got the attention.
Not that I have any interest at all in laying blame — there is plenty to go around. But if I were forced to lay this incident at anyone’s feet, it would be the conservative fan base, and their full-on freakout about where David had been seen. Without that, none of this would have happened.
http://tinypic.com/player.php?v=f4rb5d&s=5
eh, saw that chelsea lately show last night. it’s her schtick, to skewer everyone, so david isn’t the first, nor the last to get the needle from late night talk show comedians. his picture was at least displayed very prominently, lol and he has gained over 3500 new twitter followers since the story broke, most sending messages that are supportive. i think the storm is passing over, and what we’re feeling are little sprinkles left over from the monsoon. it’s not the first time at the rodeo for david to be skewered like that on her show. she did much worse in a skit after his dad’s indiscretions came to light. and if i were to point a finger at anyone for this mess, the young and hormonally hyped up filipino fangirls deserve equal share, even slightly more than you assign the so called ‘conservative contingent’. i saw more outrage and heat coming from them -- i never knew there was such burning hatred and antipathy for charice. they totally went scarily ott in expressing that hatred for her, in nonstop strings of tweets calling her all sorts of filthy names, even sending a few death threats along with those tweets to her, and david. in their minds, she and he were dating, she wasn’t good enough for him, she was going to drag him down, he should leave her alone, etc. a barrage of some of the nastiest messages i’ve witnessed on twitter. they fanned the fans to a point that i think just spiraled out of control, and david got caught between hormally charged young fangirls demanding charices heads, and the occasional one from a necklace clutchers. what happened has happened, we’re dealing with the consequences, lessons will hopefully be learned on all sides.
i hope david,, more than anything hires a top flight pr person/publicist to act as the middle man in his communication with the media, and even the fans. i see the day coming when he adopts the stances of most pop stars at his level of fame, and begins curtailing and severely limited his one on one or personal interaction and contact with his fans. we have been spoiled to be granted the little bit, or sense of access or accessibility to him that we have. he is the exception, and far from the rule for most. it’s gotten to the point where he’s damned if he does, damned if he doesn’t, and if i were him, i’d be inclined to delete twitter and say the heck with it. i don’t believe he will get that fed up, but if he did, i ain’t gonna be mad at him.
ggdoorsfan — David wouldn’t have responded on a Sunday to a twitterstorm about Charice.
GGdoors and Rascal, funny how we saw different responses. I, too, saw the ones from the young Filipino girls. I didn’t see any complaints (that I can think of) from any ‘convervative contingent.’ (And I guess I’ll add here that I am not conservative, myself.) I have some of all types of fans on my own twitter follower list, and I am being completely honest when I say that the conservative people on my list were quite level headed about it. It was the emotional young girls.
If you do a twitter search for David’s twitter user name, you get different results than if you search for “David” and “Archuleta” and “gay.” But it seems that we see through our own lens. Unless David makes an honest public statement about what exactly he was responding to, we won’t really know.
244/ hi rascal -- we can’t or won’t really ever know exactly what his thought processes were, after catching hell all day on twitter, or what were the triggers that compelled him to feel he ultimately had to respond. i saw those tweets, being on vacation gave me the luxury of being able to devote more time to david related activities. i am a grown woman, used to dealing with and in situations of conflict and strong emotion, and i was taken aback at the intensity coming at him and her from those fangirls. i prayed he wouldn’t respond to that madness, but he chose to, and here we are. as painful as some of the fallout has been for him, and the fans, it is a situation where much wisdom can be acquired -- from david, his handlers, the fans, with our various and myriad expectations of david. we’re all in this together, we all share a little blame in the big picture for what transpired sunday. going forward, i hope this serves as a reminder and a teaching moment for all sides.
Rascal: “ggdoorsfan — David wouldn’t have responded on a Sunday to a twitterstorm about Charice.”
For someone who likes to remind people they don’t actually know David, you really seem to forget that fact yourself
How would you know what David would or wouldn’t have responded to? During a time he was constantly asked if he was dating Miley Syrus/Taylor Swift/Demi Lovato/Selena Gomez, David actually POSTED A VIDEO saying he wasn’t dating them or anyone. So while you seem to want this to be all about the gay, perhaps it actually isn’t, and you’d be embarrassed if David proved you wrong
P.S. One time he really freaked out when people thought he was dating his friend Ashley. I don’t remember the details but I’m sure the information is out there.
Kurt1960: Good post.
this made me smile… one of many similarly worded tweets he received after the chelsea lately show… gives me hope that the storm is abating…
crazydodge04 @DavidArchie lol. Just saw about this on Chelsea lately and yea I believe you David. It happens. No biggie. I believe your not but then again its nobody’s business. Only your own. Would be cool if you were. Lol. =). Take care.
less than a minute ago from UberTwitter
Yeah, embe. The few times that I’ve seen him get a little snarky was when he was dispelling dating rumors. I always remember how, during his Idol run, his friend Mietra came to a show and Ryan suggested that David might ask her to prom. She got hate mail for months. I don’t blame him for the snark but I’m beginning to actually HOPE he cuts off some of the fan to star connections.
My hunch is Charice called David on Sunday since fans were blaming her and making threatening remarks. He decided to respond which most of us would agree only made matters worse. A learning experience. I think it’s time to wrap it up. We have all learned a lot about each other.
RASCAL in #205 — Oooookay. Now this is an explanation I can wrap my brains around.
Thank you for your patience in explaining your point and for stating plainly that “David is not a homophobe”. I needed to see that coming from you.
However, I still have an issue for anyone to lynchpin this communication debacle for greater sociopolitical issues cos David simply did not sign up for that. For example, do I berate Ricky Martin now because it took him so long to come out? Is that a bad example or a dangerous message to gay kids? But again thank you for clarifying that you do not regard David as a homophobe.
RONALD -- Happy bday (muwah!) My wish is that you indeed get a chance to actually resolve with David how this episode affected you (#208).
I also hope that in the event that some gay archie kids are following this news, that David’s follow-thru twits (e.g. I have nothing against anyone) mitigate to some extent, the confusion that they may be going through.
LILME -- As long as expressed in earnest, I would like to think that here in TDC “there is room for all opinions… “.
I really, honestly do believe in my heart that David has been hugely misunderstood by some of the fans who think that he is a bigot and that he is not open-minded enough to accept homosexuality and other kinds of diversity.
This is what I think:
David has been labeled and/or rumored as gay ever since he was on Idol upto this day. I really do think that his recent reactions were only his mere attempt to clear things out to everyone that he is not gay. I do believe that his reactions were not at all to imply anything about gay people or to judge them in any way. All he wanted to get across was the message that the reason of him being in that club was because the rumor of him being gay is true.
How can we even blame him if he reacted that way? He’s been bombarded with false rumors and nasty accusations that he was gay for a few years now. But he kept quiet about it. He knew from the start that there is nothing wrong with being gay that’s why he never made a fuss trying to deny it or anything at all before. It’s just that him being seen at a gay nightclub would spark more controversy and worse, probably even serve as a definite conclusion for a lot of people especially the media that he is indeed gay. So what does a straight guy to do? Maybe he was thinking this is serious and that he can’t just stay quiet this time and say nothing about it just like he always did before regarding his sexuality. As someone has pointed out over and over again, this was clearly a no-win situation for him, but I don’t blame him for trying to just explain once and for all that he is not gay. Not that he thinks anything is wrong with being gay.
Rascal, You said “David missed an opportunity to stand up for what (I hope) he knows deep in his heart is right.” I think David took the opportunity to stand up for himself and say what he believes deep in his heart.
You said. . .
“There’s a kid. A boy. Perhaps twelve or thirteen years old. This boy knows that he is different. He doesn’t like sports. He likes to sing. He finds himself thinking about a couple of the other boys in school. He loves David Archuleta more than any other performer he has ever seen. He twitters. He sees that David was at a gay club to support a friend and watch a performance and suddenly feels that if David Archuleta can be seen by the rest of the world to be hanging out with gay people that maybe it would be okay if he, himself, the boy, might be gay. But then, he sees that David said that he would “never intentionally go to a place like that.” Oh, David tries to explain himself later, but the damage is already done. Maybe David doesn’t think being gay is okay. Maybe the boy continues to think he is not okay.”
Here’s another scenario.
There’s a kid. A boy. Perhaps sixteen or seventeen years old. He knows he is different. His interest is not in sports. He loves to sing. He studies the charts and learns more about music than any kid around. He practices singing in his room and his yard. He tries out for American Idol and to his amazement makes it. He is thrilled and works hard. All he wants to do is sing. He becomes the front runner and somehow a target of bloggers and others. He has to hear that his Dad is a monster, controlling him not even allowing him a drink of water. They write that he is an abused child, a robot, with no feelings, and programed from birth. He is given labels and called names. He hears that people think he is gay even though his interest is in girls. Never has a kid on the show had to face the innuendo and rumors that are heaped on this boy. He is not allowed to explain how he feels but the damage is already done. Maybe the boy thinks he is not okay.
The story doesn’t end here. The boy is very strong and courageous and has a good heart. He believes that if he just keeps working very hard and singing and trying his best to be a good person and do good for others that people will see, and understand, and accept him for who he is. Time passes. The rumors from the show follow him. He goes to see a friend sing and it turns out to be at a gay bar. Because of things being said to him and her he decides to explain. He also doesn’t want people to be mad at his friend. His explanation is ridiculed and motives he never had ascribed to him. He feels he has let people down, maybe continues to feel he is not doing okay.
I hope the real end of this story is not that he decides to leave this all behind in order to be happy and feel that he is okay. I hope David is strong enough, in spite of all this, to know he is okay. I understand that in your story Rascal, it is hard to be a young boy who is gay but maybe we need to understand that it is also hard to be a young boy who is straight and to not have people believe or just accept you for who you are and who you say you are. He shouldn’t have needed to feel he had defend himself to his fans, but he did, because of all that was said. Fans should be the people who have his back. He doesn’t really owe us anything but I hope he can feel safe enough to continue to share his thoughts with us. I care about David, I believe in him, and I am willing to accept him at his word. David and his beautiful voice bring joy to my life. I would hate to lose that.
Oops, I did not proof-read:
“All he wanted to get across was the message that the reason of him being in that club was because the rumor of him being gay is true.”
I meant:
All he wanted to get across was the message that the reason of him being in that club was because the rumor of him being gay is NOT rue.
Heidijoy, if he were simply responding to the Charice dating rumor, then why say “I would never intentionally go” to a place like that?
In regard to some of the comments, I sense an effort to strain credulity in order not to see what’s plainly in front of us -- to have a blind spot, if you will, about homophobia (David “avoiding the gay”). It’s not pleasant to recognize it when it’s there, especially when it is expressed by someone as wonderful and caring as David. It’s much easier and comforting to give David the benefit of the doubt.
But when you’re gay, you simply don’t have that luxury. And it gets frustrating, because nearly all instances of homophobia one encounters is not the obvious Afterschool Special type -- it’s subtle, it’s insidious, it’s an expression of the overall stigma and invisibility that surround gay people in society. This frustration accumulates over time as, over and over, people defend ignorant comments and say “oh, they didn’t mean it” and suggest one is being overly sensitive, that it’s simply in their head, that they’re silly for suggesting even that a statement had negative implications. Women surely encounter being put on the defensive when they challenge sexism, yes?
Thing is, when there is this true straining of credulity, this puts people who point out homophobia on the defensive, and creates more space for homophobic comments across the spectrum (ignorant to bigoted) to be said. And, ironically enough, this only leaves David more vulnerable to the homophobia that prompted him to tweet in the first place.
The criticism Rascal and I have raised has been quite mild in form (if you’re looking for much sharper statements, you can find them on many gay sites about this incident), and I hope Rascal’s comment #205 better explains the problem with what David did more. But it feels around here sometimes like using the word “homophobia” is an epithet that is equally objectionable as “fag.”
Of course, I don’t mean to say everybody (or even any particular person here) wants that to be the result. But when I make criticisms in a mild-but-as-clear-as-possible form, as I have, and excuses that truly strain credulity are made and I’m told I’m “vilifying” a young man I still deeply love and admire, well… that is what is actually expressed as it plays out in the real world.
I don’t want to end simply on a note of frustration: I am very happy with this discussion and am thankful that the majority of people here have been quite sympathetic and willing to understand.
I’m new to this site and I hope you don’t mind if I join this discussion but I have been reading some of the comments here and Wendyg in particular with her angry, hateful rhetoric disturbed my sleep last night.
I have a brother who is gay and was made an outcast by our parents for many years. They reconciled before our parents passed away. I know through my brothers experience how painful this can be. I shared a house with him for 3 years and I know that he would say that we can not stop the hate until we learn to care about each other equally. An angry, hard line approach toward people that we believe to be bigots, makes us bigots towards them. We cannot control how others think or act, but we can control ourselves. If we respond with patience, love, and understanding it is much easier to help people to understand others that are different from themselves. But anger, just creates more anger and we will never resolve anything. I go to Church and read the Bible and Christ tells us that it is easy to love our friends and those who agree with us, but we should also love our enemies. Love is the greatest commandment.
I believe David to be a wonderful but young inexperienced human being who is just now learning how to become a man in his own rite. It is quite difficult to learn how to deal with the public and no matter what this young man said or did he was going to upset someone. If he didn’t go, then he’s a homophobe, if he went and left immediately upon arrival, he’s a bigot. Responding the way he did in his twitters, he sounded to some as though he was still a bigot, to others he sounded as if he was trying to placate his fans. If he had not responded, to some he would have been admitting he was gay, which maybe he is, I happen to believe he is straight but only time will tell for sure.
It’s time for each of us to decide if we are true fans and we’re going to give him time and space with patience to learn completely who he is and how to deal with all of the pressure he carries at 19. I was a young married mother at 19 and quite a mess. I think he is amazing for his wisdom and choices for being so young. Or are we only fans when he echos our own believes and values.
Thank you for alloying me to voice my opinion on this matter. And thank you to all of you who run this site for providing the forum to have these discussions.
Ronald I’m not saying he decided to speak out because of dating but because Charice was being blamed for taking him there! I understood your hurt regarding David’s response and I supported you two days ago on this but perhaps you forgot. I did not see a need to rehash David’s response. I also said we have all learned a lot from each other. You and Rascal have done your best to explain your views and make this a teachable moment for all of us. While we’re all learning here I must also include that the original article here sensationalized the fact that David went to a Gay club. This may have fueled the drams. Earlier reports said he was at a Club with Charice’s entourage. Maybe we all have some things to learn. Believe me I understand your points ut think it is time to wrap it up at a healthy level. Not my call, just my opinion.
Heidijoy, thank you for clarifying. I still think that’s quite a stretch (and he would still have been responding to the idea that if Charice had invited him there it would’ve been a bad thing), but I do appreciate your affirmation of sympathy and understanding.
DoddfanA: Welcome to TDC. I really appreciate that we can have so many different points of view here and perhaps each can walk away with some new insight. Thank you for stepping up and posting -- your story of your brother is once again a way for us to all remember that we aren’t talking about a “class” of people, a group, a type. Each one is a person with people who love them. They are brothers, sisters, parents, children.
I know I’ve taken away some perspectives I didn’t have before this discussion, and I always think I’m so darned liberal and open. HA! I saw a part of myself I didn’t quite like while reading these comments, and I’m pondering it quite a bit.
Thank you again!
DoddfanA: Beautiful post! Thank you for sharing.
It’s so nice to find a diverse group of people from all ages and walks of life to have open discussions. I have been looking for people who love David but can be open about their points of view.
Thank you for being kind and making me feel welcomed and part of the “family”.
The only thing I want to add is that Club 57 is for ages 21 and up. I do recall reading back in Feb. that David almost didn’t go to sing Crush at The Mint in LA Feb. 22, because he thought it was only for ages 21+. Some of the shows there are for 21+ but that one turned out to be for all ages. (I checked their website) I believe that when David has sung at venues, it has always been for all ages. So I do think that when David said “I wouldn’t get into things like that,” he’s thinking of the whole bar scene, and he is still after all, under the legal age for a club of that type. Maybe he did mean it on several levels, but I think he would have been uncomfortable in a non-gay bar with the same atmosphere. Who knows what he saw/thought that made him feel compelled to tweet? I kinda resent Rascal that you blame the conservatives for getting up in arms. I think it is more accurate to say it was mostly the very young and immature.
Rascal #242- I watched that clip earlier and was surprised that they weren’t harsher. In fact, when I first heard that she talked about this incident, I cringed, because I know how mean she can get. I read her take on her website and was quite happy about how “nice” she was about the whole thing. In fact, at a few places that I was sure David was going to get reamed, I have been surprised how supportive people have been. Sure there is snark, a little nudge, nudge, wink, wink. But it pretty much has been just a laugh at David’s expense. Ronald & Rascal, unlike you, I do believe David would have addressed this whole incident to defend Charice. Here there were vile things & even death threats thrown at his friend. And as heidijoy pointed out, the first tweets were about David being at a club. From what I am discovering,please correct me if I’m wrong, it being a gay bar did not come into play until this post at The David Chronicles.
In other related David news tonight’s the night for the 27TH Annual ASCAP Pop Music Awards and then its the Britweek Gala. YAY! hopefully this means new pictures and videos. Did you all catch the Idolchatter article about David’s new book? He starts each chapter with one of his favorite quotes. The one they leaked was from J.K. Rowling -- “It is our choices that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.”
TO DAVID: Good luck to you for tonight -- you’ll make us proud like you always do. Love you <3
TO THE REST OF YOU:
What it's all about
http://www.gifsoup.com/view/343599/davidjonah-o.gif
Again, my comment has apparently been flagged as spam.. not that I’m surprised
Can anyone help?
Good Morning,
Thanks Rascal, for your post at #205 and Marlie, at #207, which made me realize, that in my haste and extreme tiredness I forgot to really address and finish my post by actually fleshing out what it was about HG’s original post that got me all sad and mad and fired up in the first place. I typed that as fast I could, because I wanted to get it off my chest, but as I neared the end, I dropped the ball and just hit the submit button. Sounds like a few college papers I wrote. Your posts bought up so many images that “completed” and fleshed out my feelings and my thoughts about how I, and Rascal’s “perhaps 12 or 13 year old”, and Marlie’s actual teens were seemingly being disenfranchised from “the dream“. And, to HG’s credit, she did eliminate her very brief , but dismissive response to my quick post(s) on her site, as I think she probably read my post here, and realized that I wasn’t just flying through the site trying to fan the flames, or in this case, flame the fans. My hurt was real, and although her post brought it out, I now don’t think there was intention there. Sleeping and the distance of time probably helps, too.
I think it’s obvious from the thousands of posts from site to site that yes, David’s fan base is very diverse, and there is definitely a commonality between them that they all see him as this enigmatic, spiritual, talented, empathetic and kind young human being. Yes, he does seem just so perfect in so many ways. Everyone seems to want a piece of that , they all seem to want to belong and be a part of it, and conversely, in striving for that, they all want to see HIM in a part of them. The more commonality perceived between David and fan, the more that this “dream” and being a part of it, can go on. Isn’t it great that we ALL can dream? What strikes me most is that everyone seems to be actually fighting for a part of this, and their own part in this…whatever it may be and mean to them. Whatever it is, it sure seems to be lovely. With an exception. With all of this fighting, I get a visual of the fan base, with David in the middle, all with hand on leg and limb, pulling, pulling and tearing fiercely and in many directions, saying…”no, David belongs over here, this is what he is, and this is what he represents”!
Where David belongs, really is, and forever will be , up to him. I’d like to believe that those tweets were a hasty aberration and that that will be shown in due time. In the meantime, while I’m watching and waiting for what’s next on that front…I’ll continue to watch the fan base, unfortunately, tell each other just what David is, or is not, how he stands with them, and vice versa, much to the detriment of us all, and possibly to David.
And Ronald, I totally agree with your post #255.
Egads, did I use the word “totally”? That could not be me…
Rascal #242: “What this does show quite clearly is how the vast majority of the world is interpreting David’s tweets, and emphasizes an important lesson:…No one would have cared one whit that David had been seen in a gay club. It wouldn’t have hit anyone’s radar in the general press. It would have been a big “who cares?” Vast majority? No one? For real?
Rascal #244: “ggdoorsfan — David wouldn’t have responded on a Sunday to a twitterstorm about Charice.” And you know this?
Gee, I know God has many names but I never knew one of them was Rascal.
AnotherDavid,
You’re right. I did respond to you as what I thought was a “troll” “flaming the fans,” as you put it. And I did delete my dismissive comment after reading your story here. I am sorry to have offended you when I was deliberately and snarkily referencing the way David’s very diverse fanbase tend to get competitive and “possessive” about who we think David is and what he represents to us.
I don’t know how long you’ve been apart of TDC, but the fact is, this particular community exists because of the hate from one segment of David’s fanbase expressed to another.
I hear the pain in your story, but in Rascal’s, I hear a different kind of pain and word of caution to David. It’s a pain fraught from tensions between very different types of fans. On the one hand, I completely get what David means about his need to “take a stand.” It’s not just about David making his gay fans feel good about themselves; it’s about discouraging his more homophobic fans from thinking it’s okay to hate -- even though David is all about love.
At the same time, I felt David was being cautious in explaining his own discomfort (which I did not think was out of the ordinary knowing who David is).
Your image of David being pulled apart from different fans rings true, and even conjures in my mind a rather funny picture.
Except it’s not really funny. Especially for a 19-year-old who works so hard at trying to please everyone.
On the one hand, I completely get what David means about his need to “take a stand.”
Oops! That should read: “I completely get what RASCAL means about DAVID’s need to “take a stand.”
There’s quite a difference, too, between a fan, willing and able to pay the price for a ticket on the cruise ship Archuleta, and just wanting to go along on the ride, and a fan who thinks that they can review the applications and applicants and create a list of who really belongs on that ship or not.
255/ hi ronaldsf… as usual, a great post.
‘But when you’re gay, you simply don’t have that luxury. And it gets frustrating, because nearly all instances of homophobia one encounters is not the obvious Afterschool Special type – it’s subtle, it’s insidious, it’s an expression of the overall stigma and invisibility that surround gay people in society. This frustration accumulates over time as, over and over, people defend ignorant comments and say “oh, they didn’t mean it” and suggest one is being overly sensitive, that it’s simply in their head, that they’re silly for suggesting even that a statement had negative implications. Women surely encounter being put on the defensive when they challenge sexism, yes?’
insert black female for gay, and welcome to my world. what you describe is what blacks have endured in this country for over 400 years, and the battle still continues, in spite of many people’s delusions about ‘we have overcome’. i’m still waiting on that tweet, or email. i sometimes think being black in this country requires a constant giving of the benefit of the doubt, just in order to survive, and hold onto one’s sanity. you walk through life knowing that there are people you must deal with on a daily basis in the greater society who may be kind to your face, but harbor beliefs and attitudes about you far removed from what they portray. and still act on those beliefs and biases, though klan sheets and hoods have been replaced by business suits. i don’t play a victim’s role, we in my household were the ‘uppity types’, lol. we were raised to be strong, and to value the power and freedom afforded by an education. we also have had to develop highly sharpened skills of discernment in order to navigate between two worlds. we must navigate between two worlds in america, where most in the present majority have never even had to consider it, unless they chose to for whatever reasons. it’s easy to become overly cynical, and sensitive, and in some cases hypersensitive to this, and i understand how difficult it may be for some to grasp this unless you have lived and experienced it. i hear all kinds of comments made every day -- on my job, in public places, that i consider to be ignorant, racist, offensive. i am not afraid to stand up and call it out when it is presented before my face in that manner. i have been lucky, have been afforded the opportunity to receive an education, both academic and real life, that has exposed me and opened me up to other people, and other world cultures, and belief systems i never would have been given the opportunity to have if i had not moved away from my small town. have made many mistakes along the way, have judged people wrongly several times for saying or doing things i have found to be insulting or offensive to my race or gender. i’ve also learned to meet people where they live, and try to understand where they’re coming from before those sensitivities just automatically take over, and i label them as something they may not be. if david offends me in such a way that i can no longer objectively and rationally give him that benefit of the doubt is the day i’m done. his comment on idol in reference to not having the ‘black skills’ sounded much like the very first awkward conversation my boyfriend and i had, lol. he’s white, and had wanted to ask me out many months before he did, but was so shy and afraid i’d laugh in his face for not possessing those ‘black skills’ he assumed i was used to, lol. we’ve been together over 10 years now, and we’ve learned and grown and still are doing that. i thank god every day for giving the best man i’ve known that benefit.
Another David, well, I totally love that you used the word “Egads” lol And I appreciate your thoughts.
HG, “Except it’s not really funny. Especially for a 19-year-old who works so hard at trying to please everyone.” That is exactly what makes my heart hurt.
HG…thanks.
embe #266 -- I unspammed you lol! Sometimes the automatic spam filter makes mistakes.
ggdoorsfan, I loved what you wrote and have felt for a long time that David is so lucky to have you for a fan. By the way, I am NRRUtahhhhhh. I believe you added the hhhhhh. LOL
cb-Wow. I enjoyed your take on this. I have often thought of how he has endured more than any other contestant has on idol. You know, as we all do, that David is different than most in the music business. I think that this was seen right from the get go and that is why AI and the media gave him such a hard time. Can you imagine being on a television show where you are a teen who is Mormon, shy, lacking confidence, criticized over every thing you do? I have always heard how strick Mormons are and how different their lifestyle is. Maybe he realizes that many people will never like him because he is a Mormon. The music industry looks down I believe on people who are of that religion. They want an artist who is willing to do anything for them to make money. Such as sing whatever song they choose for them to sing. To me it’s not just about being Mormon, because there are others, but David in general is a unique person. I have never seen a celebrity like David before. Most are conceited and play up to the public for cd sales. They want to be like other artists and come across as being cool. It’s all about their image and how much money they can make.
Should we condemn him for being different? No, I don’t think so. You know when he sang Imagine, he already had another song and the arrangement done. He then decided he wanted to change his song. He said he felt really strong that he needed to sing Imagine. It represented who he is. David told the producers or whoever is in charge that he wanted to change his song. They were not happy about it. It got them mad if I am remembering correctly what he said.
I do think David has had a tough time with standing up for himself due to his religion and has had to deal with some difficult things. There are people in all walks of life who are unique individuals, and are not always seen as being what is considered normal. But, what is normal? We all are just who we are and should be accepted for it and not judged…
dafan4ever! I could hug you for understanding and for letting me know that I am not invisible. It is hard to be different. So many people here know and understand that. But your last sentence….”We all are just who we are and should be accepted for it and not judged…. Wouldn’t that be wonderful?
Thank you for your kind comments, CB. Yes, I agree, wouldn’t it be wonderful…”if we all who we were and should be accepted for it and not jugded? (from DAFAN4EVER) Making judgments, though, is part and parcel in our survival instincts, it’s pretty much unavoidable. Making discriminations and noting difference, too, is inherent in our nature. Everyone is a judge. It takes a lot of education (I’m not talking school) combined with compassion, empathy and an opendmindedness to overcome millions of years of evolution; to learn to overcome these instincts and just enjoy each person you encounter as a unique chance to learn and grow and share. Sometimes, I’m so so disappointed in myself about my mean thoughts (they seldom come to action)…but you try. We live in a very competitive culture, in a very competitive world. In some segments, it’s survival of the fittest. Celebrity seems to be one of the worst.
I travel to Mexico a lot, and there are times when I just want to pack it up and live somewhere like that where family, food, and the simpler things in life seem to be much more sacred. Where adults, let alone crazy teenage girls, can have an actual conversation with you without taking pause for text or twitter.
I feel for David on this one. The scrutiny he is put under seems to demand perfection and nothing else is acceptable. Hes a 19 year old boy and trust me, we ALL say things we regret. I think this was nothing more than a poorly worded tweet rather than any declaration of homophobia and I think any response other than ‘lets forget about it’ is just too sensitive. David isnt perfect.
Ive been to a fair few gay bars/clubs in my time (although I am straight) and on first visit, they can be quite shocking. Im certainly not homophobic in any way but there are things that go on in those places which take some getting used to. Expressing discomfort in a place like that is not a decry of homophobia. Heck, even some of my gay friends dnt like gay bars/clubs lol. I think its unfair on David to decry activities he saw in that place ‘not his thing’ as homophobic. Its certainly not right for people to be discriminative towards homosexuals but in turn its not acceptable for anything said against something in a gay context to be considered homophobic.
Yes, he should have worded those tweets better but ultimately its just a storm in a tea cup and people should get over it.
Ronaldsf: really love David?
Preach, GGdoors#274!
And Happy Birthday, Ronald! Didn’t realize your B-day is only 1 day later than mine!
Chenson…really…quite shocking?? That is painting a pretty broad brush on gay clubs. I have been to clubs gay and straight all over the place and find nothing more shocking in any gay club that I wouldn’t see in a straight club. Granted there are extremes…but they traverse the orientation spectrum. I’m sure we could find a few straight clubs with some shocking exhibitions. On first visit? Not following your logic here.What would you need to “get used to” that you wouldn’t have to in a straight club? David said nothing about “activities”.
Re-reading Dreamerjulie’s letter from David again, and all I have to say is: I CANNOT WAIT FOR HIS MEMOIR!
More than that, I cannot wait for a CD of sacred music from David. Any guy who prays, then actually sits STILL to await the spirit to fulfill him is just… unreal!
I know expressions of religiosity and God-talk are bound to make certain people uneasy, but David’s letter is not simply a letter of a religious fanatic or zealot who can’t think for himself other than what church doctrine tells him to think. There’s real depth there.
Who is this guy?
And I would also like to say, on this subject (which, Rascal, I would hope you would fearlessly post on this at some point in the future), that the strength of David’s faith (for me) is less about his Mormonism and more about his personal spiritual journey. I doubt his older sister and younger brother (who both grew up in the same faith, I presume) have the same depth of feeling when it comes to religion (just a hunch from the way they express themselves), so while the LDS church led David on this journey, it’s really David’s own personal decisions in how he has chosen to witness to the Spirit.
I might fault a church for having flawed views that encourage discrimination, but there is a baby (David) to save from the dished-out bathwater.
At the same time, as grateful as I am that this letter was shared to us, I am a bit uneasy that it was shared in a way that may have been designed to “prove” that David couldn’t be “gay” or “homophobic” or what have you. To me, the contents of the letter says nothing about David’s abilities and capabilities concerning the controversial issue at hand. It merely reveals the level of his spirituality.
I’ve been rereading the letter because The VOICE sounds so earnest, sincere, and immersed. He’s not merely parroting what the grownups and elders in his church have taught him. He sounds like he speaks from experience and with authority.
I’m not a psychoanalyst so I can’t read too deeply into what such a letter might reveal about the writer, even if I’m only expressing an opinion, but I am impressed by the messenger, and it reveals something about the source of the “soul” I hear so clearly when David sings.
TDC is still one of the better David fansites because we speak frankly and passionately about the stuff that matters -- whether it’s all about David or not.
I hope our disagreements won’t diminish what has always been this community’s greatest strength: thinking deeply and seriously about David.
dafan4ever #279 Should we condemn him for being different? No, I don’t think so.
I don’t think so, either. But I’m not sure where this came from. Is that in response to something here, or was that just sort of a rhetorical question and not really directed at anyone in specific?
HG: Well said. I also was struck by the depth of David’s words and how he wasn’t so concerned about getting the Bible passage right, just getting it’s meaning out. He is a truly amazing young man, and I think he is wise beyond his years. There wasn’t much in that letter that was parroting, as you say. It was from David’s heart.
Ok one thing is for sure…whether he is anti-gay or not, gay or not, too conservative or not, rumors during idol and post idol true or not, whether we all agree or disagree, there is a reason that we were drawn together and became fans of David. There is something unique and special about this guy. From the first time he opened his mouth to sing, and how spoke thru his eyes, we were captivated by him. There is no denying his amazing talent, personality, and to me his character.
Happy Birthday Ronald.
Chensen, pretty darn good summary:)
Another David, okay, that is the second time I got tears in my eyes from something you wrote.
I know the world is far from being a perfect place. Maybe that knowledge is why David (not to mention his voice) has such a pull for me. I see some light in his eyes, his persona, I don’t know how to explain it really, but I don’t want whatever it is, to ever be extinguished. His fans, no matter how diverse and different a group of people we are, all seem to sense this aura! We see the hope and love and goodness of this young man. Is he perfect? No, of course not. But he sure seems like someone worth nurturing and understanding. We wouldn’t be here if we didn’t feel something in our hearts for David and through this common bond hopefully we will become more understanding of each other. I know I have gained some new insights and appreciation for others these last few days and I thank you all for that.
cb yes it would be wonderful!
HG I had not read your comment #286 before my last post. I loved your comments. This…”but I am impressed by the messenger, and it reveals something about the source of the “soul” I hear so clearly when David sings.” I hear it too.
I was struck by the spiritual nature of the letter as well. Perhaps as David grows he may explore other faith traditions that speak to that sense of breathing as prayer and meditation, such as Buddhism or Quakerism, or others.
Hi. I’m late to the party, and whoever this doesn’t apply to, please ignore.
David is so much like me that it’s scary. So let me tell you how things might look through his eyes.
David’s a perfectionist. He thinks in exact terms. Clearing things up is important to him, because he wants what is heard to be accurate and complete with no room for misinterpreting what he did or who he is. I do this constantly, and it drives people nuts. If you hear only 1/2 my story one day, you’re gonna get the other 1/2 the next day with full detail, whether or not you care. Because..I care. It’s the only way the story gets told right.
Most likely, David is very peaceful and dislikes conflict. He would never EVER hurt anyone on purpose, and I believe that it really hurts him inside when he has. He wants to please others and keep everyone happy, but is extremely passionate about certain subjects and unwavering in his convictions. He puts 110% of himself into everything he does, and there is absolutely no more that you ask of him. He’s already giving you all that he has; there’s nothing else left. He’s spent.
David is a rock. He’s clearly showing you exactly who he is and isn’t. And he’s not changing himself for his fans or anyone else, so either choose to love him for who he is, or please leave.
Now…coming from the part of me that isn’t like David…
I am completely in shock at the viciousness I’ve seen coming out of so-called fans this week. David breaks his neck to please his fans, and my heart is completely broken right now. He has given so much more of himself than any artist I know. He’s spoiled us rotten with blogs and vlogs and tweets galore. He goes out to meet fans in the rain at the buses when he’s exhausted. He shows unconditonal love and compassion, and THIS is what he gets in return? He’s given everything that he has, and he’s doing his very best! You’re picking him apart until there’s nothing left to take. What part of that do ppl not understand?
I’d think that after 2 long years and 500 vlogs, people would also realize that he doesn’t always word things right, and that he doesn’t hate ANYONE! And if he is a bit uncomfortable in a gay bar, so what? So am I! He has that right, and it’s perfectly normal, because gay clubbing isn’t something that he does. It’s not him. And it doesn’t have to be him, because he’s David and not you.
I don’t understand why people are expecting him to be someone he’s not. But they better be taking him down off their pedestals and start treating him like a person. Not a perfect being who’s never allowed to make a mistake. Not a piece of clay to be molded to fit YOUR desires. He’s a person with HIS OWN identity. His OWN set of values and life history, and he does not owe it to you to identify with you in order for you to buy his music.
Do you have any idea what kind of pressure this puts him under? He’s a person, guys. A person. If he wasn’t as strong as he is, I think he’d be cracking under it all right now. Bottom line: If you really honestly care about David, you’ll respect the person that he is~ flaws and all~ and not expect more of him than is humanly possible. If you can’t do that, please move on, because David deserves fans who love him the way he loves them. And when you find an artist who’s perfect, please let me know. I think David’s as close as you’re ever gonna get.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY RONALD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!WE LOVE YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Okay, VJ. I’m already sad tonight, but you’ve brought tears. Maybe that’s what I need: a good hard cry. I sense so much truth in what you’ve said and I can imagine that David is really hurting. (Which also means that he learned something.)
I know I’ve learned. And I’m going to try to keep my heart and mind open.
Happy Birthday to the birthday folks.
And goodnight to all.
HG# 286 thinking deeply and seriously about David.
…to say the least.
Have read much tonight..deep, thoughtful, passionate, articulate, heartfelt.
About that letter..wow. Beautiful. Teachings he has obviously taken to heart, and sincerely shares.
I always go back to what I’ve felt from early on… he’s only just begun to show us who he is. There is so much depth in this thoughtful, sensitive guy. I too cannot wait for Chords.. to learn more.
I…”grown-up person” (occasionally!)…learn so much from this “40-year old in sneakers”
Tonight I take with me..
“After you pray, be still, & let your thoughts & mind be clear. Give yourself time to think so that the promptings of the spirit can replace your confusion.”
Lovely and solid advice.
and just so I can remember the WHOLE picture and smile:
“If any of you lack wisdom, Let him ask of God.”-James1:5 (or something on those lines haha)
(written on blank computer paper with a sharpie, and five pages long!)
ah…David. <3 I just love the dichotomy.
Nite all~
VJ, Thank you so very much. You hit the nail squarely on the head. This is what I was trying to get across in my #221 post.
Ps: Happy Birthday to Ronald and belated to Rascal and HG.
HG #286: Beautiful post. Wow, just wow.
VJ #294: Excellent. Couldn’t have said it better myself.
I can’t imagine a young man like David being comfortable in a gay bar either. For that matter, neither am I.
I have what I believe to be an unconditional love for David, the same kind of love a good parent would have for their own child. It matters not that he might make mistakes from time to time, as long as he can learn from them, as I believe he has learned from this one. What I have witnessed from some recently disturbs me though -- kind of like “Well, I love him, but I wish he hadn’t gone *there*…” or “I love him, but I wish he hadn’t said *that*…” Sorry, that really doesn’t cut it for me. If you love the guy, love him for ALL of him, not just the parts you want to love.
David is many things to us. He is a true artist with his voice. He reaches in and embraces our very souls with every note he sings. He is an innocent young man, and wonderfully Archudorkable. What he is not is the Second Coming. He puts his pants on just like the rest of us. I’d wager real money that he actually uses the bathroom too. He is not perfect, and never professed to be -- in fact, quite the contrary, he has always been just about as humble as they come. I absolutely refuse to entertain the thought that he intentionally meant to hurt anyone’s feelings.
Yes, David has some growing up to do. And from what I’ve seen over the past few days, he’s not the only one.
As a society we deem that an 18yr old is an adult, and then expect them to have instant knowledge of adulthood and what that means within that society. Then should they be involved in any profession that that society has declared as entertaining, we once again expect them to conform to every individual’s ideals of what that behavior should or should not be.
If someone chooses to dance, act, sing or any other activity that society sees as entertaining and then they choose to do that in a public forum, such as television or on a stage, they somehow become non people; as if they are the property of that society to control, manipulate and mold into whatever each individual wants from them, somehow forgetting that they are a human being with ideals, moral, values and viewpoints of their own, which they are free express as everyone else is. Do I want my neighbor, teacher, rabbi, priest, lawyer, grocery clerk, office worker or any other person with any other type of job to believe and act exactly as I want? No, why because we all have our free agency to choose and I for one am glad we do. I see no reason to sit in judgment of anyone, do me no physical harm and I shall do you none either, number one humanity rule.
Opinions, we all have them, but funny it just seems that the most voiced ones are the ones knocking people off the pedestals that those people placed them on in the first place or complaining when that person doesn’t fit in the box they made for them. If we walked a mile or a thousand miles in someone’s shoes we would never ever really know them, what right then do we have to judge them.
Having watched many video’s of David’s interactions with others and having seen him and spoken to him in person several time, I have found his propriety with others the gentlest and kindest I have only witnessed a few times in life. Always with a smile or a kind word, has eye to eye contact with an open, honest, heart feel interest in what others are saying to him. I did not know when I met him for the first time he had been run ragged by others, pushed and shoved into interviews and meetings, unable to even have time for his sound check (which his ear piece was not working) and then only moments after his performance; as he stood physically exhausted late at night, he greeted each person with love, respect and compassion, showed a genuine interest in meeting them, handing out hugs to strangers.
I for one hope he NEVER changes, I hope that the rules of obedience that society seems to be trying to force upon him will not change the person he is and that he will continue to grow in the knowledge of his chosen profession for I love his voice and music! Amazingly one of David’s favorite songs is Man in The Mirror by Michael Jackson. This is just one persons opinion amongst a sea of others.
Oh yeah, HAPPY BIRTHDAY RONALD! May you have many, many more!
Did the articles on this site contribute to this crossing from the smaller fan community to mainstream media?
VJ, YES!
raelovingangels #302: The answer to that may be with someone above my pay scale but I suspect the mainstream media got this story mainly from twitter. These days, information travels at the speed of light.
VJ- I agree…
raelovingangels -You bet they did. Just fanned those flames perfectly while shouting the main headline immediately and with great glee and mocking an entire group of people:
“Cue the Archufan Freakout”
Didn’t log off…read VJ…absolutely agree.
I really hope David is ok. Always. Period. End of subject.
And he has my support. Always. Period. End of that subject.
Ok(wow this thread must be the longest in TDC history)…g’nite.
HG#286 Wow, just wow!
You’re welcome.
VJ ~ THANK YOU!!! You have said it ALL and quite brilliantly.
I agree with you 1000%. David is the most loving and giving
human being I have ever even heard of. I will be his fan
forever, no matter what his decisions are!!
Truefan and Kurt Nice. You guys make me feel a little better. I hope David is feeling okay.
VJ: I’m sorry, but you just did what you accuse others of doing. You just did a complete profile of “what David thinks”.
Listen, I love David and will ALWAYS be a fan. You may not like the fact that I can see him as a human being and can actually talk about his mistakes without thinking any less of him.
I have two sons just a little older than David. The last time one of them wrecked a car because he was going a little too fast in snow -- not speeding, mind you, but just didn’t use the best judgment for conditions, I did not say, “Oh, well, he didn’t mean it. He would never wreck my car on purpose.” Well, no kidding! But wreck it he did.
And I would be a pretty poor excuse for a parent, someone who LOVES THIS CHILD WITH ALL MY HEART if I didn’t let him know that he made a mistake. A BIG one. A $2500 one. But more importantly, one that next time could hurt him or someone else. And, one that he could have avoided had he stopped to think about the conditions of the road.
Unconditional love does not mean that you ignore any mistake a person makes, it means you love them regardless of the mistakes, even as you acknowledge them. The gift of unconditional love is that is is given IN SPITE OF mistakes or troubles. There is no gift, nothing special in giving your love to someone who is perfect or who you place on a pedestal. That is easy.
And by gnashing your teeth over someone saying anything about David that doesn’t paint him as perfect, you are stealing David’s power and his strength as a man. If you think he is strong, then get out of his way and let him BE strong. If you think he can handle anything with grace (and he’ll handle this, you can be sure), then get out of his way and let him do it. Because treating him like a weak and incapable person is the worst kind of disrespect.
NEW POST —>
Marlie7 -- I wonder how your sons would do with all their friends (fans) picking them apart on forums and making their paths more difficult by having their every word interpreted and discussed and the opinions then moving on to major media while saying “but you know I love you” or “it’s for your own good”. Well, no, sometimes public flogging is not for David’s own good especially from the ones who he thinks “have his back”. It just reminds him that he can not actually trust anyone.
collegemom: I myself have been picked apart on forums in a local political situation -- in the newspaper and on news blogs. I have been accused of things I could not even have possibly done, vilified and lied about for almost 2 years. I would give my eye teeth if people only talked about what I had actually done or said. At least you can respond to that.
Well, this discussion was long, maybe is time to Move on ? Please? This kid is being the objet of criticisme because the interpretation of a tweet (140 words), i still thinking it was an bad advice to react on twitter, but he did it, nothing he can do now to take his first action back. He’s gonna learn of this first experience in RP , he’s not perfect and has the right to do mistakes on his life, he’s not a poster boy or a private property of any groupe , he deserve the freedom to grow at his own pace, to take advice when he want and to make his own desicions without the pressure of any person, groupe or organisation. For sure i think he’s a responsible person who gonna try to find the way the relieve the pain his words caused to some of his fans by his lack of habilities to use very well 140 characteres on twitter lol.
Now in a more immature note from my part : I don’t want to hear about Charice again LOL, don’t like at all the comment about how David need her because his career is in stan by and he need her to be in Oprah
. And is still finding funny her tweet explaining the all situation a saying how she was just promoting ” Pyramide her new single , number 7 in Billboard Dancing List’, (insert commercial voice here)LOL , I believe in David when he said she never mentioned what kind of Club it was, not cool girl, not cool..:(
G’night
tibi: I love to read your rational, sensible words. There is a new post and perhaps we can just go over there a drool a bit over those gorgeous photos of David. I’m hoping for a bunch more when his CD is released and he makes some live appearances.
Marlie, I have two sons. When one wrecked our car ($2500 here too LOL) he knew that he had made a mistake (he worked to pay the $500 deductible.) Yes we learn from our mistakes. The accident did not occur because he did not think or was willfully careless, it was caused by his inexperience and making a poor judgement on how much room he had. He felt terrible and I did not have to say much except that I was glad he was not hurt. I understood and accepted that he did not do it on purpose. He has more experience now and is an excellent driver and I have confidence in him. That does not mean he will never have another accident.
I don’t think anyone thinks David is perfect! I don’t expect or need him to be. I just think our support and not our criticism and endless nitpicking is what he needs. Treating someone with trust is not disrespect. On the contrary, trust is what helps a person become stronger. Knowing someone has your back and believes in you can make all the difference.
You said, “The gift of unconditional love is that it is given IN SPITE OF mistakes or troubles.” How true that is.
Marlie7: “And by gnashing your teeth over someone saying anything about David that doesn’t paint him as perfect, you are stealing David’s power and his strength as a man.”
I read VJ post as the opposite of this statement:
VJ #294: “I don’t understand why people are expecting him to be someone he’s not. But they better be taking him down off their pedestals and start treating him like a person. Not a perfect being who’s never allowed to make a mistake.”
David tweeted something a few months ago that personally didn’t think was right. I had to step back and remember that even though he seem so wise beyond his years most of the time, he’s still very young and he’s not perfect. HE’S 19. HE HAS FLAWS. As he venture out more into life, he will encounter many, many new situations. Some he will get right, some he wont. That’s just life--mines, yours, his. We simply can’t expect him to know how to handle everything perfectly just because he’s David Archuleta.
Love this: “…I’ve learned. And I’m going to try to keep my heart and mind open…” Thanks KathyH
DreamJulie -- thanks again for sharing your letter. If you still have misgivings in sharing them, I hope you find some solace in this: David’s letter reminds me so much of my Dad’s letter when I turned 7 and he was away working in Denmark (he’s a naval architect & marine engr). My personal stuff, along with that letter got burned sometime ago. Was heartbroken. So, it was like re-reading my Dad’s letter when you posted yours. He is 78yo now, very frail and can hardly speak.
TO ALL -- I will “keep a prayer in my heart” as my way of thanking everyone here who so generously shared & sought some level of understanding of this complex issue.
Cheers!
Happy bday HG!
#285 where did I say it would be any different in a straight club? Im sure there are plenty of things that go on in a straight club that would freak him out as well. He’s just not accustomed to these things as he most probably hasn’t set foot in many clubs, if any. I think the fact it was a gay club, and quite possibly a fairly eccentric gay club, is merely incidental in the fact that what he saw there made him feel uncomfortable. That doesnt make him homophobic. Im sure David would feel equally uncomfortable in an equally eccentric straight club, like a strip club or something.
Too much attention is paid to sexuality, especially over in the US. I really wish people would get over it and move on. Its just not a big deal.
“Ive been to a fair few gay bars/clubs in my time (although I am straight) and on first visit, they can be quite shocking. ”
That is the statement I was responding to. Nothing to do with David. I had cut him mega slack long ago. I can read through his tweets very easily thanks very much. I can only ASSUME in my own mind what went on in his. Nothing to do with your statement. Maybe had you said “I’ve been to a fair few gay AND straight clubs in my time…” I would not have “misinterpreted” your comment.
That seems to be a lot of what has gone here over the last few days. I’ve been over it from the moment it happened…
THANK YOU EVERYONE for the birthday wishes! Wasn’t here for a while because, well, CELEBRATING lol.
I’ve only had time to read a couple comments and wanted to respond to Collegemom #314…
David isn’t the only person to worry about in this conversation: I was one of many people who felt hurt by David’s public statement, and I had to respond. When David makes a public statement like that, then yes he will receive (and deserves) public scrutiny. That is also a necessary consequence of celebrity, and something he receives in exchange for having a large part of the public supporting him and buying his albums. That public profile he benefits from also brings on responsibility.
Sandiego #283: do you even know me? And so even the way I presented things in #208 doesn’t satisfy your “love” test?
Well, that would mean you insist I set aside my dignity entirely, and also not educate David about how to avoid more severe criticism in the future. As for your “love test,” I’m glad I failed.
To people, especially AnotherDavid and ggdoorsfan, I really appreciate your response to my post #255. It’s strange, I felt the most anxious about how people would reply to that than anything else I’ve posted so far. It’s part of the stigma, I guess, that I was talking about.
I remember tibitibis’ comparison a while back during the Ass Thread
about how his fans are like two parents haggling over how best to treat a son. Anyway, that’s the perspective I keep while reading the many passionate and diverse comments here.
I’m glad this discussion has happened.
Ronald, hugs to you. You’ve always come across to me as a caring person and I can tell that this whole situation has been hurtful for you. And, yes, I do think you love David in whatever way you do, the same as most of us love him in the ways we do. It’d be far easier if we could be the kind of non-invested fan who just loves his voice and music, hm? (And I wonder if he wishes everyone were of the latter type.)
I think Marlie was right to start a lighthearted new thread, and I’m ready to move on, but a question occurred to me this morning as some of our conversations replayed in my mind. I don’t think I need an answer at all. It’s just something that I thought about this morning while running errands, and that I think I’ll continue to think about. Here goes:
It seems to offend some if a person says, “I wouldn’t go to a gay club” or “[a gay club] isn’t my kind of place.” Can you imagine this similar statement being offensive? “I wouldn’t go to a Catholic church” or “[a Catholic church] isn’t my kind of place”?
#286 hellogorgeous I’m responding way late to this, and I know another post has been started, but I didn’t want to respond in that one and carry anything from this one over to that nice, sparkling, clean one.
I did not post the letter to try and disprove that David is gay. I have not even an inkling of what his tendencies are toward that, and frankly, I’m really not concerned with it. My intent was more to show where David seems to be coming from much of the time. The fact that he prays throughout the day is quite inspiring to me. And I venture to guess that most of his prayers are in regards to helping others and/or helping him to do the right thing. I guess I was hoping to redirect everyone away from David’s tweets and realize the absolute goodness that is David Archuleta. He is always thinking of others. I’m not sure he has a selfish bone in his body. And if he did, he would probably try to apologize for it and try to cut it out.
#320 jackryan4da Thank you so much for that. I know the letter has helped several people, and yet, I still fret about posting it. Some have stated that they think I should have it removed from here, for fear of it ending up in the wrong hands. I know sharing it with David’s fans was the right thing to do. Maybe, people that want to have it could hurry up and save it to their files. And then, maybe the admins could remove it from here before it is seen by the general population? Not sure what harm it could bring to David, not even sure anyone in the general population would care about it, but I certainly don’t want anyone judging David negatively because of the letter.
KathyH, I know you were not looking for a response to this but I did feel like I needed to make a quick comment. Gay is not a choice, Catholic is. For some, not wanting to go to a gay club implies that gay is wrong. Not wanting to go to a Catholic church usually means it is not their religion which is clearly a choice. The disapproval is not the same but some Catholics might take offense.. In other words in today’s world there is nothing different about a gay club vs. a straight club. Both types intermingle freely in each club.
I said earlier that I let this one go a long time ago and here I go with more comment… Sorry, I’ll go back to work now.
Here’s my footnote on how much I care about David… If it weren’t storming in Southern California I was going to buy a ticket to tonight’s event in LA ($500 for individuals if one could be had) and see him perform. Just could not fathom being on the freeway for a couple of hours in rainstorms which would have probably made it a four hour trip. I’ll make it up on the next tour!
Mike, not sure you’ll see this in an abandoned thread, but thank you for answering me. I did think of that idea but couldn’t think of a better example at the time. I believe with all of my heart that gay is not a choice. I wouldn’t have spent the last few days here trying to understand and be understood if I didn’t believe this way.
I’m still of the opinion, however, that for David the response was not about the gay. Finally, I thought of a scenario: what if Charice had been performing in front of a thousand gay men in a concert hall where all were clothed and seated. If David had been questioned about his presence there, I cannot imagine that he’d say ‘it wasn’t my kind of crowd’ or ‘it wasn’t my kind of place.’
We’ll never know, and of course that’s just my hunch. Again, thank you for responding.
Hey Kathy, in that same vein…I NEVER thought David would come to SF. But I surely hoped so. And, he did. I just thought that he’s “skip” that venue. My first time seeing him live and in person. For some reason, two tickets bought, and other “family” priorities came up. Sad days.
I’m sure it’s a typical experience, but…I was so overwhelmed…with my own expectations, and also of what I’m sure so many have experienced. How can someone be so physically small, and so simple…and yet project something that makes you feel connected with something that is something far and beyond…something that you’ve always been looking for in your search for something better and MORE…
KathyH, in your scenario, I don’t think the rumors would have emerged as they did in this situation. A gay club is a place where people go to meet other men. A concert with gay people at it is a place… to hear someone sing.
I’ve said that the eroticism of the bar and “the gay” could not be separated -- it was the expression of gay sexuality at a place like Club 57 that caused the rumors and called for the backtracking.
AnotherDavid, your last point got me thinking… about the article I just drafted lol. There’ll be a new article up soon, so stay tuned
And heeey, that’s my hometown! Maybe I’ll meet you someday!
Ron, I’m always thinking, too. That’s why I don’t do this too often. I’m most often a lurker, otherwise I’d get no sleep at all. I’m just hitting the submit button, otherwise, yes I’d be up at all hours.
Ron, I think I saw you at the Sf show…I almost came up and said “Hi”, but I was with a non-believer…
Hey! Lovefest! And you know what I’m talking about.
Another David,
“I’m sure it’s a typical experience, but…I was so overwhelmed…with my own expectations, and also of what I’m sure so many have experienced. How can someone be so physically small, and so simple…and yet project something that makes you feel connected with something that is something far and beyond…something that you’ve always been looking for in your search for something better and MORE…”
I don’t understand it, but I felt it too.